Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

richard enlightened us with:[color=blue]
> Rejoice! No more confusing conversations with PyPy developers![/color]

Thanks for sharing that. I always wondered where the name came from :)

Sybren
--
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
Frank Zappa

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 16:50:26 +1100,
richard <richardjones@o ptushome.com.au > wrote:[color=blue]
> So I did what people always do in this situation, I asked Barry Warsaw to
> name. it. And he did, "Cheese Shop". I liked the name, so it was done. When
> the new pydotorg machines went live last year, so too did the name
> cheeseshop.pyth on.org[/color]

Given the endless whiny complaints about the name, though, I think we
should just give up and go back to PyPI (pronounced 'Pippy').

--amk

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

A.M. Kuchling wrote:[color=blue]
> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 16:50:26 +1100,
> richard <richardjones@o ptushome.com.au > wrote:
>[color=green]
>> So I did what people always do in this situation, I asked Barry Warsaw to
>> name. it. And he did, "Cheese Shop". I liked the name, so it was done. When
>> the new pydotorg machines went live last year, so too did the name
>> cheeseshop.pyth on.org
>>[/color]
>
> Given the endless whiny complaints about the name, though, I think we
> should just give up and go back to PyPI (pronounced 'Pippy').
>[/color]
I realise it's an incredibly boring name, but what about pronouncing it
as "the package index" or "the Python Package Index". Spelling it
"PyPI" if one insists on a very short name in some written context is
fine, but try not to use it when talking to a new user. That is, link
to the page as "The Package Index" from www.python.org, refer to it as
"you can find that in the package index", or "The Python Package Index
has modules for X, Y, and Z" in a non-Python context. Use pippy if
you're talking with someone deeply embedded in Python culture (maybe),
but don't expect people to know what you're talking about. Use "the
Cheese Shop" similarly.

Luckily, www.python.org already does this, so no change is really
required, it's only the server-name that says "cheeseshop ", everything
else says "Package Index" (that I could find)...

Which boils down to "don't call it the cheese shop or pippy when you're
talking to new users", maybe don't even call it that when you're talking
to *anyone* who's not deeply pythonified, but feel free to think of it
as the cheese shop or pippy. The familiar names, cute as they may be,
don't really help users much. That is, make it an in-joke if you like,
but assume that users will refer to it via the obvious, simple
description of what it is and target documentation and communication
appropriately. When/if the user "gets" that the Package Index is the
Cheese Shop they can feel great having pierced that bubble, but don't
force them to pierce it to get the software they need.

Just my two cents,
Mike

--
_______________ _______________ _______________ ___
Mike C. Fletcher
Designer, VR Plumber, Coder

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

A.M. Kuchling wrote:[color=blue]
> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 16:50:26 +1100,
> richard <richardjones@o ptushome.com.au > wrote:[color=green]
>> So I did what people always do in this situation, I asked Barry Warsaw to
>> name. it. And he did, "Cheese Shop". I liked the name, so it was done. When
>> the new pydotorg machines went live last year, so too did the name
>> cheeseshop.pyth on.org[/color]
>
> Given the endless whiny complaints about the name,[/color]

I was just hoping that honour would be bestowed upon me for suggesting a
brilliant alternative name, but I sense it is not to be...oh well
(whistles tune to himself).
[color=blue]
> though, I think we
> should just give up and go back to PyPI (pronounced 'Pippy').[/color]

Perusable Index of Packages for PYthon -> PIPPY (or PipPy if CamelCase
is preferred, or pippy...).

PyPi is doomed to be mispronounced pie-pie.

Anyway, thanks to Richard Jones for all his work on PyPI/Cheese Shop,
whining about the name notwithstanding .

Tim C

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

On 3/11/06, Mike C. Fletcher <mcfletch@roger s.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
> I realise it's an incredibly boring name, but what about pronouncing it
> as "the package index" or "the Python Package Index". Spelling it
> "PyPI" if one insists on a very short name in some written context is
> fine, but try not to use it when talking to a new user. That is, link
> to the page as "The Package Index" from www.python.org, refer to it as
> "you can find that in the package index", or "The Python Package Index
> has modules for X, Y, and Z" in a non-Python context. Use pippy if
> you're talking with someone deeply embedded in Python culture (maybe),
> but don't expect people to know what you're talking about. Use "the
> Cheese Shop" similarly.[/color]

I think that calling it simple 'Python Package Index' is a great idea.
If you want a shortened version, call it by its initials: PPI. No need
for cutesy 'pippy' pronunciations or odd 'PyPI' capitalizations . Just
PPI.

--

# p.d.

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

A.M. Kuchling wrote:
[color=blue]
> richard <richardjones@o ptushome.com.au > wrote:[color=green]
> > So I did what people always do in this situation, I asked Barry Warsaw to
> > name. it. And he did, "Cheese Shop". I liked the name, so it was done. When
> > the new pydotorg machines went live last year, so too did the name
> > cheeseshop.pyth on.org[/color]
>
> Given the endless whiny complaints about the name, though, I think we
> should just give up and go back to PyPI (pronounced 'Pippy').[/color]

just change the link on the main site to read "packages", change the self-
references on the cheeseshop.pyth on.org page to "Packages" or "Package
Index", move the quote down to the bottom of the page, and and leave
the rest as is.

</F>

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

> just change the link on the main site to read "packages"

and while you're at it, change "python-dev" to "developers " and
"psf" to "foundation " (or use a title on that link).

</F>

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

Fredrik Lundh wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>>just change the link on the main site to read "packages"[/color]
>
>
> and while you're at it, change "python-dev" to "developers " and
> "psf" to "foundation " (or use a title on that link).
>
> </F>[/color]

For most people 'developers' would mean people developing *with* python,
not developing python.

Also 'Foundation' could be confused with 'beginners' or 'basic'.

Tim Parkin

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

Tim Parkin wrote:
[color=blue]
> For most people 'developers' would mean people developing *with* python,
> not developing python.[/color]

the page it leads has headings that say "Python Developers Guide" and
"Links for Developers", and contains links about "Developmen t Process",
"Developer FAQ", etc.

I'm convinced that people visiting python.org can distinguish between
"using python to develop stuff" and "developing python", but that's me.
[color=blue]
> Also 'Foundation' could be confused with 'beginners' or 'basic'.[/color]

while "PSF" is completely incomprehensibl e for someone who doesn't
already know what it is... why even keep it on the front page ?

(give it its own section on the community page instead. the link is
already there; all it needs is a heading and a short blurb).

</F>

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

Fredrik Lundh wrote:[color=blue]
> Tim Parkin wrote:
>
>[color=green]
>>For most people 'developers' would mean people developing *with* python,
>>not developing python.[/color]
>
>
> the page it leads has headings that say "Python Developers Guide" and
> "Links for Developers", and contains links about "Developmen t Process",
> "Developer FAQ", etc.[/color]
I think telling people they are in the wrong place isn't quite as good
as helping them get to the right place.
[color=blue]
> I'm convinced that people visiting python.org can distinguish between
> "using python to develop stuff" and "developing python", but that's me.[/color]
Simple user questions (i.e. asking people what they think a 'developers'
link would lead to on a programming site) suggests that the majority of
people think differently to you.
[color=blue][color=green]
>>Also 'Foundation' could be confused with 'beginners' or 'basic'.[/color]
>
> while "PSF" is completely incomprehensibl e for someone who doesn't
> already know what it is... why even keep it on the front page ?[/color]
Usability says that people choose the first appropriate link to click
on. They will only click on psf if they already know what it is. If it
was called *foundation* and they were a beginner then they may well
click on 'foundation'. If they wanted to know about the support and
community behind python, that material should be obviously placed under
'community' and the information should also be under 'about'.

Navigation usability isn't about trying to make every link mean
something to every user, it's about making sure that for each use case,
a clear path to the information is available. The difference is subtle
but important.

Calling the link *foundation* goes halfway to solving the problem in the
wrong place.
[color=blue]
>
> (give it its own section on the community page instead. the link is
> already there; all it needs is a heading and a short blurb).
>[/color]
It was in the community section but most people wanted it back on the
top level.

Tim Parkin

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

Tim Parkin wrote:
[color=blue]
> Simple user questions (i.e. asking people what they think a 'developers'
> link would lead to on a programming site) suggests that the majority of
> people think differently to you.[/color]

so where's this mythical user group that you're using for the site testing ?

</F>

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

Fredrik Lundh wrote:
[color=blue]
>Tim Parkin wrote:
>
>
>[color=green]
>>Simple user questions (i.e. asking people what they think a 'developers'
>>link would lead to on a programming site) suggests that the majority of
>>people think differently to you.
>>
>>[/color]
>
>so where's this mythical user group that you're using for the site testing ?
>
></F>
>
>
>
>[/color]
freinds and colleagues both online and off.. Some of whom are python
programmers, most not. Without a budget for 'comprehensive testing' then
the next best thing is asking people, at least you'll generally get rid
of the big bloopers.. it's typically referred to as guerilla testing and
whilst not scientific, it's better than nothing at all.

Tim Parkin

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

On 3/12/06, Tim Parkin <tim@pollenatio n.net> wrote:[color=blue]
> freinds and colleagues both online and off.. Some of whom are python
> programmers, most not. Without a budget for 'comprehensive testing' then
> the next best thing is asking people, at least you'll generally get rid
> of the big bloopers.. it's typically referred to as guerilla testing and
> whilst not scientific, it's better than nothing at all.[/color]

I consider myself a Python developer, and if I saw a 'Developers' link
on a Python site, it would seem obvious that it would be something
that might interest me. It would not occur to me that this referred to
people who are developing the language itself.

--

# p.d.

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

In article <mailman.3118.1 142169639.27775 [email protected] >,
Fredrik Lundh <fredrik@python ware.com> wrote:[color=blue]
>Tim Parkin wrote:[color=green]
>>
>> For most people 'developers' would mean people developing *with* python,
>> not developing python.[/color]
>
>the page it leads has headings that say "Python Developers Guide" and
>"Links for Developers", and contains links about "Developmen t Process",
>"Developer FAQ", etc.
>
>I'm convinced that people visiting python.org can distinguish between
>"using python to develop stuff" and "developing python", but that's me.[/color]

Given the number of people who post off-topic to python-dev, I don't
agree with you.
--
Aahz (aahz@pythoncra ft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming,
is not worth knowing." --Alan Perlis