4899

1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA
3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION
4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE
5
6
7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )
8 CALIFORNIA, )
9 Plaintiff, )
10 -vs- ) No. 1133603
11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
12 Defendant. )
13
14
15
16
17 REPORTERS TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
18
19 TUESDAY, APRIL 5, 2005

20
21 8:30 A.M.
22
23 (PAGES 4899 THROUGH 4960)
24
25
26
27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #
3304
28 BY: Official Court Reporter 4899

1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2
3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,
4 District Attorney -and-
5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney
6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara S
treet
8 Santa Barbara, California 93101
9
10
11 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU B
Y: THOMAS A.
MESEREAU, JR., ESQ.
12 -and- SUSAN C. YU, ESQ.
13 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 Los Angeles, C
alifornia 90067
14 -and-
15 SANGER & SWYSEN
16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Str
eet, Suite C
17 Santa Barbara, California 93101
18 -and-

19 OXMAN and JAROSCAK BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN, ESQ.

20 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard Santa Fe Springs,
California 90670
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 4900

1 I N D E X
2
3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as SN on index.
4 Mr. Zonen is listed as Z on index. Mr. Auchincl
oss is listed as A on index.
5 Mr. Nicola is listed as N on index. Mr. Meserea
u is listed as M on index.
6 Ms. Yu is listed as Y on index. Mr. Sanger is l
isted as SA on index.
7 Mr. Oxman is listed as O on index.
8
9 PLAINTIFFS
10 WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
11 FRANCIA, Jason 4902-M 4944-Z
12 (Contd)
13 KALLMAN, Kris 4949-SN
14
15
16
17
18
19

20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 4901

1 Santa Maria, California

2 Tuesday, April 5, 2005
3 8:30 a.m.
4
5 THE COURT: Good morning.
6 THE JURY: (In unison) Good morning.
7 THE COURT: Mr. Mesereau?
8 MR. MESEREAU: Yes. Thank you, Your Honor.
9
10 JASON FRANCIA
11 Having been previously sworn, resumed the
12 stand and testified further as follows:
13
14 CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued)
15 BY MR. MESEREAU:
16 Q. Mr. Francia, we were discussing yesterday
17 your first interview with two police detectives
18 which took place on November 3rd, 1993, okay?
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. Thats where we left off.

21 Now, did you discuss your testimony

22 yesterday with anyone after you left the courtho
use?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Who did you discuss it with?
25 A. My wife.
26 Q. Anyone else?
27 A. No.
28 Q. Did you discuss it with any prosecutor? 4902

1 A. No, I was kind of nervous. I said, Howd

2 it go? And they smiled and they said, It went
3 well.
4 Q. And which prosecutor told you that?
5 A. I cant specifically remember, but it was
6 one of them.
7 Q. Okay. Did you discuss anything else with
8 one of them?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you talk with any sheriff about your
11 testimony?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Were you on the phone last night with anyone
14 about your testimony?
15 A. No. I did tell my pastor this morning that
16 I was on the stand, and if he could pray for me.
17 But other than that, that was it.
18 Q. Anyone else?
19 A. Nope.
20 Q. Okay. Now, yesterday you told the jury that

21 Mr. Jackson had given you some money, correct?

22 A. Right.
23 Q. And you told them he had given you
24 hundred-dollar bills, right?
25 A. Right.
26 Q. Isnt it true that when you were originally
27 interviewed by the police, you told them that Mr
.
28 Jackson would give you money each time you read
a 4903

1 book?
2 A. Yeah, he also said that, as well. Yeah,
3 hed give me $20, I think it was.
4 Q. And you told the police that you remember
5 him having a room full of books, and you said eve
ry
6 time you complete a book, hell pay you some mone
y,
7 right?
8 A. I dont remember that, but I remember
9 listening to it on the tape.
10 Q. But that was your voice on the tape,
11 correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. You also told the police that Mr.
14 Jackson told you one time that if you got As in
15 school, he would also pay you every time you got
an
16 A, correct?
17 A. Yes. That is correct. I remember -- I
18 dont remember him saying that, but I remember i
t on

19 the tape.
20 Q. And that was your voice on the tape?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Telling it to the police, correct?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Okay. When you met with the prosecutors
25 before you testified, did anyone tell you not to
26 mention that when you talked about money?
27 A. No.
28 Q. Okay. You just forgot? 4904

1 A. Im sorry?
2 Q. You just forgot yesterday?
3 MR. ZONEN: Objection; argumentative.
4 THE COURT: Overruled.
5 You may answer.
6 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When you were responding
7 the prosecutors questions --
8 THE COURT: Wait. He has a question pending.
9 MR. MESEREAU: Oh, Im sorry.
10 THE COURT: I overruled the objection.
11 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the question?
12 THE COURT: The question was, You just
13 forgot yesterday?
14 THE WITNESS: I have no idea what youre
15 referring to. I just forgot about what?
16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: About Mr. Jackson paying
17 you money for, one, reading a book --
18 A. No --
19 Q. -- and, two, getting As.
20 A. I didnt remember that, but I remember

21 saying that on the tape.

22 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, following your interview
23 with two police officers in November of 1993, to
24 your knowledge, Mr. Jackson was never charged wi
th a
25 crime involving anything you said, correct?
26 A. I dont know.
27 Q. Okay. Did you ever hear anything about
28 that? 4905

1 A. I -- no.
2 Q. Okay. To this day, youre not sure if Mr.
3 Jackson was ever charged with any crime involving
--
4 A. I dont know.
5 Q. -- what you claim happened?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. You also were interviewed a second
8 time.
9 A. Theres a hand being raised behind you guys
10 over there.
11 Q. You were interviewed a second time on March
12 24th, 1994. Do you remember that?
13 A. Again, I personally dont remember, and I
14 didnt even really listen to that tape, so -- an
d I
15 didnt get a transcript for it either, so I didn
t
16 even review it.
17 Q. You were given a tape of your second
18 interview?
19 A. I was, but I did not listen to it.

20 Q. And who gave you that tape?

21 A. It came in the same packet as tape one and
22 with the transcript.
23 Q. Do you remember present at that interview
24 was Tom Sneddon?
25 A. I remember saying that yesterday, yeah. And
26 I also remember saying that I was unsure if he w
as
27 there or not.
28 Q. Okay. But you do remember now he was there, 4
906

1 right?
2 A. I did not say that.
3 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just
4 show you a transcript?
5 A. Sure.
6 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
7 THE COURT: Yes.
8 THE WITNESS: Is this a transcript of 94?
9 MR. MESEREAU: (Nods head up and down.)
10 THE WITNESS: So these are the people that
11 were there? I -- I cant ask that.
12 THE COURT: Hes asking you to look at that
13 and see if that refreshes your memory to see --
14 THE WITNESS: No, it does not refresh my
15 memory.
16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: So you dont remember if
17 you were interviewed by Tom Sneddon and two dist
rict
18 attorneys in 94?
19 A. I remember Mike Craft being there. That was
20 the only person. And a woman being there. Other

21 than that, I cannot -- because I think that was

the
22 first time I told a woman what happened.
23 Q. Do you remember someone named Lauren Weis
24 from the Los Angeles District Attorneys Office
25 being there --
26 A. I dont. Im really bad at names.
27 Q. I have to complete the question. Thank you.
28 Do you remember someone named Lauren Weis 4907

1 from the Los Angeles District Attorneys Office

2 being present at that interview?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you remember someone named Bill Hodgeman
5 from the Los Angeles District Attorneys Office
6 being at that interview?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And you dont remember whether or not Mr.
9 Sneddon was there, right?
10 A. I -- correct.
11 Q. Are you saying he wasnt there, or you just
12 dont remember?
13 A. I dont remember whether he was there or
14 not.
15 Q. Do you remember Russ Birchim being there?
16 A. I do not.
17 Q. Do you remember your own lawyer, Terry
18 Cannon, being there?
19 A. I do not.
20 Q. Do you remember stating in that interview,

21 They made me come out with a lot more stuff I

22 didnt want to say. They kept pushing. I wanted
to
23 get up and hit them in the head? Do you remembe
r
24 that?
25 A. No.
26 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
27 you the transcript of that?
28 A. Probably not. But you can show it to me 4908

1 anyway.
2 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
3 THE COURT: Yes.
4 MR. ZONEN: What page, Counsel?
5 MR. MESEREAU: 30.
6 THE WITNESS: Okay.
7 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
8 look at that page of the transcript?
9 A. I have.
10 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about what
11 youve said?
12 A. No, it does not.
13 Q. Do you remember anything you said in that
14 interview at the moment?
15 A. Not really.
16 Q. Okay. All right. Do you remember in that
17 interview telling the people who were present th
at
18 at one point a woman came into a room where you
and
19 Michael were present?

20 A. No, I do not.
21 Q. Do you remember seeing Janet Jackson on one
22 occasion?
23 A. I remember saying that, or do I remember
24 seeing her?
25 Q. Do you remember seeing her?
26 A. I think I did meet her once.
27 Q. Do you remember where you met her?
28 A. I think it was at the mansion in Encino. 4909

1 Q. Okay.
2 A. But I really -- like, I think thats where
3 it was.
4 Q. Okay. Do you remember telling the sheriffs
5 that the first time you were tickled by Mr. Jacks
on
6 you think it lasted about 30 seconds?
7 A. Are we talking the first interview, second
8 interview?
9 Q. Either one.
10 A. I do not remember.
11 Q. Okay. You do remember giving more
12 information the second time, correct?
13 MR. ZONEN: Second time? Objection;
14 vague.
15 MR. MESEREAU: Excuse me. Hes correct.
16 Ill withdraw it.
17 Q. You do recall giving more information during
18 your second interview than you did in your first
,
19 right?

20 A. I do not recall.
21 Q. Okay. How did you meet Attorney Terry
22 Cannon?
23 A. I cant -- I think I met them at Mike
24 Crafts office.
25 Q. Excuse me, at whose office?
26 A. Mike Crafts, my counselor.
27 Q. Okay. And does Terry Cannon still represent
28 you? 4910

1 A. I dont think so, no.

2 Q. Well, you gave an interview with Mr. Zonen
3 in December of 2004, correct?
4 A. Yes. That was the first time I think I met
5 them.
6 Q. And Terry Cannon was present, correct?
7 A. Youre right.
8 Q. And Terry Cannon at that time was working
9 for the District Attorneys Office in San Diego,
10 correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. But he still came up to act like your
13 lawyer, didnt he?
14 MR. ZONEN: Ill object to the expression,
15 act like your lawyer; vague. Or argumentative.
16 THE COURT: Well, I guess instead of like,
17 it might be as.
18 MR. MESEREAU: Ill rephrase it, Your Honor.
19 Q. Mr. Cannon was present at your interview
20 with Ron Zonen on December 6th, 2004, right?

21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. At that interview, he was serving as your
23 lawyer, correct?
24 A. I dont know.
25 Q. Do you know why he was there?
26 A. I didnt really know. I was asked by --
27 actually, I didnt even know how I met you guys.
I
28 was asked to be there, I think, and he was there
. 4911

1 Q. Okay. Did he give you any legal advice

2 before that meeting?
3 A. Actually, he said, You dont have to answer
4 things if you dont want to, but I think that wa
s
5 just a -- man advice.
6 Q. So he was giving legal advice?
7 A. I dont know if thats legal advice or not.
8 Q. Did he discuss with you what you were going
9 to say in that interview?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you remember when that interview began,
12 you requested that your interview not be
13 tape-recorded?
14 A. I dont remember that.
15 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
16 you a report on that interview?
17 A. Okay. Sure.
18 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20 THE WITNESS: Okay.

21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to

22 look at that report?
23 A. I read the first paragraph.
24 Q. And does it refresh your recollection that
25 you requested that your interview not be
26 tape-recorded?
27 A. It does not, but I probably said that.
28 Q. Okay. You dont know for sure, though? 4912

1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay. And you had requested that Mr. Cannon
3 be present at the interview, right?
4 A. Youre going to have to show me the paper
5 probably.
6 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
7 THE COURT: Yes.
8 THE WITNESS: (Nods head up and down.)
9 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
10 look at the report?
11 A. I did.
12 Q. Does it refresh your recollection that you
13 wanted Mr. Cannon present?
14 A. It does not refresh my recollection.
15 Q. Let me just try and get this straight. You
16 dont know why Mr. Cannon was there, correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. You didnt ask him to be there, right?
19 A. I dont remember whether I asked for him to
20 be there or not. I probably did, only because he

21 was a friend of mine and he knows more legal stu

ff
22 than I do.
23 Q. Okay. Did you know he was working for a
24 District Attorneys Office at the time?
25 A. I believe I did, because we kept in touch --
26 Q. Okay.
27 A. -- after I was 18.
28 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Zonen began that 4913

1 interview by telling you about the current case

2 involving Mr. Jackson, right?
3 A. I didnt understand the question.
4 Q. Well, let me try and rephrase it.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. At the beginning of that interview, Mr.
7 Zonen gave you his summary of the current case
8 against Mr. Jackson, right?
9 A. I believe so.
10 Q. And he told you about a family named
11 Arvizo, right?
12 A. Really bad at names. If thats -- he told
13 me about a child molestation.
14 Q. Okay. That these were the charges against
15 Mr. Jackson, right?
16 A. I believe so.
17 Q. Okay. Have you ever met Janet Arvizo?
18 A. I dont know who that is.
19 Q. Ever met David Arvizo?
20 A. I dont know who that is.

21 Q. Ever met Gavin Arvizo?

22 A. Oh, that -- I do know who that is. No, I
23 have not met him.
24 Q. Have you ever met Star Arvizo?
25 A. I have never met an Arvizo I dont think.
26 Q. Never met Davellin Arvizo, correct?
27 A. Right.
28 Q. Have you ever talked to any of the Arvizo 491
4

1 family on the telephone?

2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. But Mr. Zonen was telling you about
4 the Arvizo family, was he not?
5 A. If thats the childs parents, then yes.
6 Q. Incidentally, after your second interview,
7 which you dont remember a lot about, to your
8 knowledge, no criminal charges were ever filed
9 against Mr. Jackson involving anything you had to
ld
10 anybody, right?
11 A. I dont know.
12 Q. You still dont know?
13 A. I -- are you talking about 94, the 94
14 interview?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. Okay. And youre asking if there was
17 criminal charges pressed against Michael?
18 Q. Im asking you what you know, okay? Youve
19 already indicated that after your 93 interview,
no

20 criminal charges were ever filed against Mr. Jac

kson
21 involving anything you said, right?
22 A. I dont know much. I dont watch the news.
23 Q. And -- okay. And after your 94 interview,
24 again, no criminal charges were ever filed again
st
25 Mr. Jackson involving anything you said, right?
26 A. I dont know.
27 Q. Okay. But at your 94 interview, you do
28 remember Terry Cannon being present, right? 4915

1 A. I dont know. I dont know who was present

2 other than Michael Craft in 94.
3 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, was it your moms
4 idea for you to have an attorney at that meeting?
5 A. To my knowledge, I dont know.
6 Q. Okay. And again, just for the record, how
7 old were you --
8 MR. ZONEN: Ill object as vague as to which
9 meeting.
10 MR. MESEREAU: Hes correct. Ill withdraw
11 it.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: To your knowledge, was it
14 your mothers idea to have an attorney be presen
t at
15 the March 24th, 1994, interview?
16 A. To my knowledge, I have no clue.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. When I was 13, I was really protected by my
19 mom, so I didnt know much --

20 Q. Okay.
21 A. -- about anything.
22 Q. And certainly when you were 13, you didnt
23 hire an attorney, someone else did, right?
24 A. I didnt -- probably.
25 Q. Okay. Okay. Do you remember meeting with
26 Attorney Terry Cannon, with your mother, in 1994
?
27 A. I do not remember, but Im sure we did.
28 Q. Okay. All right. Do you remember meeting 4916

1 with any other attorneys that your mother had

2 retained in 1994?
3 A. Other than Terry Cannon?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. I dont remember. But there was another
6 attorney, which is Kris Kallman.
7 Q. Okay. And Kris Kallman is the attorney who
8 represented you in a settlement with Mr. Jackson,
9 right?
10 A. I dont know whether it was Kris or Terry.
11 Q. And Kris also represented your mother, who
12 wanted a settlement with Mr. Jackson, correct?
13 A. I dont know.
14 Q. Now, do you know whether or not your mother
15 went to these attorneys after she learned that M
r.
16 Jackson had settled with someone named Chandler?
17 A. I do not.
18 MR. ZONEN: Objection; lack of foundation.
19 THE COURT: Court reporter, was that an

20 answer on there?
21 THE REPORTER: Yes.
22 THE COURT: Ill overrule the objection. The
23 answer was, I do not.
24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Why didnt you want your
25 interview in December of 2004 with the prosecuto
rs
26 tape-recorded?
27 A. I dont know.
28 Q. You dont have any idea why you made that 491
7

1 request?
2 A. Tape-recording is weird. I dont know. No,
3 I dont.
4 Q. Okay. Do you remember telling Prosecutor
5 Zonen in the December 2004 interview regarding th
e
6 first incident you described - okay? - that you a
nd
7 Mr. Jackson were in a tickle contest? Do you
8 remember that?
9 A. I do not. I dont know whether it was the
10 first interview or the second interview that we
11 talked about Michael molesting me.
12 Q. Well, actually, in the December interview,
13 you told Prosecutor Zonen that, in all three
14 instances that you described where you claim you
15 were inappropriately touched, every incident was
16 preceded by a tickling contest between you and M
r.
17 Jackson, right?
18 A. I dont know.

19 Q. Would it refresh your recollection just to

20 show you the report?
21 A. You can show it to me, but I dont know
22 whether it was the first or the second.
23 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
24 THE COURT: Yes.
25 THE WITNESS: Okay.
26 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
27 review that page of the report?
28 A. I didnt read the whole page. I read that 491
8

1 paragraph.
2 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about what
3 you told Prosecutor Zonen in that December 6th,
4 2004, interview?
5 A. It doesnt -- I dont -- it doesnt help
6 remembering, but --
7 Q. Well, you told him that all three events
8 that you described were preceded by a tickling
9 contest, correct?
10 A. I dont remember.
11 Q. You and Mr. Jackson were in a contest as to
12 who could tickle the most, correct?
13 A. I just said I dont remember that. I dont
14 mean to sound like Im wasting your time, but th
is
15 is kind of hard being up here, and --
16 Q. No, please dont. Just respond to my
17 questions, if you would, please.
18 A. Okay. Sorry.
19 Q. Now, on November 19th, 2004, Prosecutor
20 Zonen and Auchincloss interviewed your mother at

the
21 District Attorneys Office, right?
22 A. I dont know. Me and my mother dont talk
23 about that stuff much.
24 Q. Well, you were present, werent you?
25 A. Now I remember, yes.
26 Q. Now you remember?
27 A. Yeah. I was present there.
28 Q. You not only were present, but you also 4919

1 requested that that not be tape-recorded, correct

?
2 A. Probably.
3 Q. You dont know?
4 A. I dont know.
5 Q. Would it refresh your recollection to look
6 at that report?
7 A. No. But bring it on up.
8 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
9 THE COURT: No, he said it wouldnt.
10 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Youre not willing to look
11 at it?
12 A. Its not about me willing. Im willing to
13 look at it, but its not going to help.
14 Q. Well, that was last November you had that
15 interview with your mom and these prosecutors,
16 correct?
17 A. Again, this is all difficult.
18 Q. I know its difficult, but youre saying you
19 dont remember that interview?
20 A. You just said I met with my mom and I was

21 there, and I didnt remember until you said that

,
22 and then I remembered.
23 Q. Do you remember you and your mom both
24 requested that the interview not be tape-recorde
d?
25 A. I do not.
26 Q. Would it refresh your recollection to see
27 what it says in the report about that?
28 A. Bring it over. It -- yeah. Bring it over. 492
0

1 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?

2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
4 look at the page of that report?
5 A. Yeah, I read the first paragraph.
6 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about you
7 and your mother both requesting no tape-recording
?
8 A. No, it does not.
9 Q. Okay. You dont remember one way or the
10 other about that?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, on that particular day,
13 and Im referring to November 19th, 2004, you we
re
14 interviewed as well, correct?
15 A. Was this when my mother was present?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. Do you remember you were interviewed on that
19 day?

20 A. I think I was just there for my mom.

21 Q. Well, actually, they interviewed your mom
22 first and then they interviewed you second, corr
ect?
23 A. I dont remember that.
24 Q. Okay. They interviewed you for about an
25 hour, didnt they?
26 A. They may have.
27 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
28 you the report about that? 4921

1 A. No.
2 Q. Youre not willing to look at it?
3 A. Ill look at it. Ill look at it, but no,
4 it probably wont.
5 Q. You dont remember an hour interview on
6 November 19th, 2004?
7 A. Again, the issue is its all kind of
8 blending in together.
9 Q. You do remember the December interview with
10 Prosecutor Zonen, right?
11 A. You asked me that --
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. Go ahead, ask it again. Do I remember the
14 December interview?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. I remember it taking place. I dont
17 remember what specific was asked.
18 Q. Actually, let me clarify the date.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. Okay. Im talking about the report. You

21 were interviewed on October 18th, 2004, by

22 prosecutors, right?
23 A. Im sorry?
24 Q. You were interviewed on October 18th by
25 prosecutors, correct?
26 A. Of 2004?
27 Q. Yes.
28 A. I believe that was the first time that I met
4922

1 these guys, but I dont know.

2 Q. And then you were interviewed approximately
3 a month later on November 19th, right?
4 A. You got a bunch of hands raised behind you.
5 THE BAILIFF: Mr. Mesereau, could you check
6 if its on? I guess they cant hear you back ther
e.
7 THE WITNESS: Sorry, thats what was kind of
8 distracting me.
9 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: I had mentioned a December
10 date. Actually, you were interviewed in October
and
11 November of 2004, right?
12 A. October, November, December. I dont know.
13 Q. Okay. Do you remember having Terry
14 Cannon --
15 A. Theyre raising their hands again.
16 THE COURT: Quit hitting my microphone.
17 MR. MESEREAU: Oh. Okay.
18 THE COURT: Beat the poor thing -- you know,
19 whats happening, you have a book thats hitting
the

20 off button. I can see from here that you cant

21 see, maybe.
22 MR. MESEREAU: I think its on, but --
23 THE COURT: Gently.
24 THE WITNESS: Yeah, its bad to hit mikes.
25 THE BAILIFF: Actually, its -- when you
26 step back and are at a far distance, its hard t
o
27 hear.
28 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. 4923

1 Q. In your interview with the prosecutors on

2 October 18th --
3 A. This is the first one?
4 Q. Well, first we have 93. Then we have 94.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. Then we have October of 2004, and then
7 November of 2004. Okay?
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. In your interview in October of 2004, you
10 were asked about the third incident where you cl
aim
11 Mr. Jackson tickled your testicles, right?
12 A. I was probably asked that, yes.
13 Q. Do you remember you told the prosecutors it
14 lasted for more than ten seconds, but you dont
know
15 how much longer after that?
16 A. I dont remember saying that.
17 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I
18 showed you your report?
19 A. My report? No, it wouldnt.

20 Q. Well, the police reports.

21 A. The police report. Ill look at it, but
22 its probably not going to help.
23 Q. Are you willing to give it a chance?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. Think it might help?
26 A. No. Im sorry. But you can -- Ill give it
27 a shot.
28 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. May I approach, Your 4924

1 Honor?
2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 THE WITNESS: Okay.
4 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
5 look at the page of that report?
6 A. I have.
7 Q. Does it refresh your recollection that you
8 told the prosecutors it lasted more than ten
9 seconds?
10 A. It does not help me remember.
11 Q. Dont remember that at all?
12 A. No, but I could probably agree with it if it
13 was in the report.
14 Q. Okay. Before either the October interview
15 or the November interview with prosecutors, did
you
16 discuss what you were going to say in any of tho
se
17 interviews with your mother?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You would agree that Attorney Terry Cannon

20 was present at both the October interview, 2004,

and
21 the November interview, 2004, right?
22 A. I cant remember whether he was there on the
23 November one with me and my mom.
24 Q. Did you discuss what you were going to say
25 at either interview in advance with Attorney Ter
ry
26 Cannon?
27 A. I dont think so.
28 Q. How did he end up showing up for any of 4925

1 those interviews, if you know?

2 A. I think he called me and said I might be
3 subpoenaed for this. I cant -- I think Kris call
ed
4 me and said I might be subpoenaed up here.
5 Q. Correct me if Im wrong, I think you said
6 yesterday that you never knew that your mother ha
d
7 gotten $20,000 from the television show Hard Copy
to
8 give an interview.
9 A. I think youre wrong.
10 Q. Okay. Did you know that before you
11 testified yesterday?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And when did you first learn that your
14 mother got $20,000 to give an interview with Har
d
15 Copy in the early 90s?
16 A. I think it was last Sunday.
17 Q. Okay. And I guess she told you that?
18 A. No.

19 Q. Shes never told you that?

20 A. That she received $20,000? She has never
21 told me that.
22 Q. Did you know before last week that your
23 mother had been paid to go on the television sho
w
24 Hard Copy?
25 A. I think I assumed it.
26 Q. Okay. But you didnt know for sure?
27 A. I didnt know for sure.
28 Q. Never discussed it with her? 4926

1 A. I dont think I did, no.

2 Q. Okay. All right. Now, you admitted that at
3 the beginning of your first interview with sherif
fs
4 in 93, you said that Mr. Jackson had not touched
5 your genital area, right?
6 A. I said that at the very beginning.
7 MR. ZONEN: Objection; asked and answered.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: It was only after you were
10 pushed real hard by the sheriffs that you began
to
11 say anything like that, true?
12 MR. ZONEN: Objection; asked and answered.
13 THE COURT: Sustained.
14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: And at one point a sheriff
15 actually used a curse word to get you to say
16 something, correct?
17 A. I dont remember that, but you could show me
18 the thing.
19 Q. Okay. But as you sit here today, you dont

20 remember, right?
21 A. I dont remember the four-letter word.
22 Everybody in junior high cussed.
23 Q. How about the word bullshit?
24 A. What about it?
25 Q. Do you remember a sheriff telling you that?
26 A. I dont, but I think I remember listening to
27 it on the tape.
28 Q. Do you remember in that interview one 4927

1 sheriff telling you, Mr. Jackson is a molester,

2 and the other saying, He makes great music, hes
a
3 great guy, bullshit? Do you remember that?
4 A. I dont remember that specifically, but I
5 think I remember hearing it on the tape, which wa
s
6 my voice, or his voice.
7 Q. You do remember a sheriffs voice saying
8 that, right?
9 A. I dont remember right now of 93, but I
10 remember listening to the tape.
11 Q. Okay. And a sheriff said that to you,
12 correct?
13 A. I believe so.
14 Q. And the sheriffs complained that, Mr.
15 Jackson has a lot of money in that interview,
16 right?
17 A. I believe he did say that, but can I look at
18 the paper?
19 Q. Sure.

20 May I approach, Your Honor?

21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 THE WITNESS: Okay.
23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
24 look at the transcript?
25 A. I did.
26 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about what
27 the sheriffs said to you about Mr. Jackson in th
e
28 interview? 4928

1 A. I dont remember that specifically, but

2 reading it in the transcript, I remember reading
3 that in the transcript when I read it on Sunday,
4 when I reviewed the tape.
5 Q. And even after sheriffs said to you, Hes a
6 molester, hes a great guy, makes great music,
7 bullshit, he has lots of money, you still said h
e
8 had never touched your genital area, right?
9 A. I believe so. Probably towards the
10 beginning again.
11 Q. Do you remember the sheriff interviewing you
12 wanted to know whether Mr. Jackson went under yo
ur
13 pants or on top of your underwear, and you said,
I
14 dont know?
15 A. Im sorry?
16 Q. Do you remember the interviewing sheriff
17 asked you, Have you ever been touched under you
r
18 pants or on top of your underwear? And you said
,

19 I dont know?
20 A. Were we talking about a specific incident?
21 Q. Im just asking about the interview.
22 A. Oh. Then --
23 MR. ZONEN: Ill object as vague, Your
24 Honor.
25 THE COURT: Sustained.
26 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember in that
27 interview, when you first said in response to th
e
28 sheriffs questions, Mr. Jackson touched me, yo
u 4929

1 had no idea how long he had ever touched you?

2 MR. ZONEN: Objection; vague. Which
3 incident?
4 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: During any incident?
5 THE COURT: Do you want to rephrase the whole
6 question?
7 MR. MESEREAU: Sure.
8 Q. Do you remember in your first interview with
9 the sheriffs when, after repeated questioning, yo
u
10 finally said, Mr. Jackson touched me, do you
11 remember not knowing how long he had ever touche
d
12 you at any time?
13 A. I dont remember.
14 Q. Okay. Do you remember telling the sheriffs
15 that Mr. Jackson, during your tickle games, used
to
16 pinch you in the stomach?
17 A. Tickling, pinching. Same thing.
18 Q. Okay. You did tell the sheriffs in your
19 first interview you had never spent the night wi

th
20 Mr. Jackson, right?
21 A. I never slept in his bed with him.
22 Q. Okay. When did you last talk to Attorney
23 Terry Cannon?
24 A. Yesterday.
25 Q. Did you talk about your testimony?
26 A. No.
27 Q. Did you talk about the case?
28 A. Nope. 4930

1 Q. Did he call you --

2 A. Wait, actually, Im sorry, I didnt talk
3 about the case, but I talked about I was being
4 nervous up here.
5 Q. Did you call him or did he call you?
6 A. He called me.
7 Q. When did you last talk to Attorney Terry
8 Cannon before yesterday?
9 A. Um -- um, um, um, um. I really cannot
10 remember the specific date.
11 Q. Now, in your interview of March 24th, 1994,
12 you didnt remember what cartoons you were watch
ing
13 when you claim you were improperly touched, righ
t?
14 A. I dont know.
15 Q. Did you know you were being tape-recorded in
16 that interview?
17 A. You know what? I dont know. Typically Id
18 remember that.
19 Q. And do you remember telling the interviewers

20 that Michael Jackson tickled you in your stomach

?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You dont remember that?
23 A. No. Can I review that?
24 Q. Sure.
25 A. Is that -- it was being taped then? Or you
26 cant say. Okay, yeah.
27 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
28 THE COURT: Yes. 4931

1 MR. ZONEN: What page, Counsel?

2 MR. MESEREAU: 58.
3 THE WITNESS: Okay.
4 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You remember telling the
5 people interviewing you that Mr. Jackson did tick
le
6 you in your stomach, right?
7 A. I do not remember saying that, but I
8 probably said that.
9 Q. Okay. Do you remember in that interview
10 when you finally said Mr. Jackson had touched yo
ur
11 penis, that you told the interviewers, He tickl
ed
12 me there? Right?
13 A. I dont know.
14 Q. Do you remember you were asked, What did he
15 do with his hands? And you said, He tickled me
.
16 Do you remember that?
17 A. What did he do with his hands? And I
18 said, He tickled me?

19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Thats kind of vague. Like overall he
21 tickled me, or what are you talking about?
22 Q. You were asked what Mr. Jackson did with
23 your penis. Do you remember that? And you said,
24 He tickled me. Do you remember that?
25 A. He did tickle me.
26 Q. Okay. You were asked to describe what Mr.
27 Jackson did with his hands, and your response wa
s,
28 He tickled me, true? 4932

1 A. I dont know. I was probably crying then.

2 Q. Would you like to review the transcript, see
3 if it refreshes your recollection?
4 A. Sure.
5 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. May I approach, Your
6 Honor?
7 THE COURT: Yes.
8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: By the way, if you dont
9 remember the interview, how do you know you were
10 crying?
11 A. Because I usually cry when were talking
12 about the molestation.
13 Q. Okay. Okay. Again, do you remember saying
14 to the police officers in response to their
15 question, What did he do with your penis? You
16 said, He tickled me?
17 A. I thought you were going to bring me that
18 thing.
19 Q. Would you like to see it?
20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. Do you remember describing what Mr. Jackson
24 did as tickling?
25 A. Do I remember describing what Michael
26 Jackson did as tickling?
27 Q. Yes.
28 A. Like tickling my penis or -- 4933

1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Are we talking the first or second or third
3 incident?
4 Q. I dont know.
5 MR. ZONEN: Well, Im going to object as
6 vague.
7 THE COURT: The objection is sustained.
8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember telling
9 the interviewers in that second interview in 1994
,
10 when they asked you what Mr. Jackson did with yo
ur
11 penis, you said, He didnt really touch it, he
was
12 above my shorts? Do you remember that?
13 A. Are we talking first or second or third?
14 Q. I believe you were just answering their
15 questions.
16 MR. ZONEN: Objection; vague.
17 THE COURT: Sustained.
18 Counsel, youre going to have to direct --
19 if youre going to question in this manner, you

re
20 going to have to direct it to specific times. Th
ere
21 were three interviews.
22 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Im sorry, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: And youre being unfair to the
24 witness in my opinion.
25 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Directing you to
26 the second interview that you ever gave about th
ese
27 events, okay? And that was the interview --
28 A. In 94? 4934

1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. Yes. Okay?
4 A. I thought we were talking about 2004. Im
5 sorry.
6 Q. Okay. Thats my mistake, I apologize.
7 Lets talk about the 1994 interview.
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. All right? Do you remember being asked the
10 question, Did Mr. Jackson touch your penis? An
d
11 you said, He didnt really touch it, he was abo
ve
12 my shorts?
13 A. I do not --
14 THE COURT: Wait. Just a minute.
15 THE WITNESS: Im sorry.
16 THE COURT: I want you to approach.
17 MR. MESEREAU: Sure.
18 (Discussion held off the record at sidebar.)
19 THE COURT: All right. You may proceed.

20 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Im going to try

21 and direct my questions to a particular intervie
w,
22 one of the four that you had, and direct them to
one
23 of the three events that you have described when
you
24 claim Mr. Jackson improperly touched you, okay?
25 Now, directing your attention to the second
26 interview, which is in 1994 - okay? - and direct
ing
27 your attention to the first event that you have
28 described where you claim Mr. Jackson improperly
4935

1 touched you - okay? - do you remember -- excuse m

e.
2 Isnt it true that, when asked about the first ev
ent
3 in that second interview, you said Mr. Jackson
4 didnt really touch your penis?
5 A. I dont --
6 MR. ZONEN: What page?
7 MR. MESEREAU: 60.
8 THE WITNESS: No, I dont remember.
9 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Would it refresh your
10 recollection if I show you a page of that
11 transcript?
12 A. Bring it over.
13 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach?
14 THE COURT: Yes.
15 THE WITNESS: Okay.
16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
17 look at that page?
18 A. I have. Well, not the tape. Ive read
19 those two little sentences there.

20 Q. Does it refresh your recollection of what

21 you told the people who were interviewing you ab
out
22 that first event during the interview in 1994?
23 A. It does not refresh my memory. But in
24 reading it --
25 THE COURT: Wait. Thats the end of your
26 answer.
27 THE WITNESS: Okay. Sorry.
28 THE COURT: Listen to the question and just 4936

1 answer the question asked.

2 THE WITNESS: Okay.
3 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You just dont recall
4 saying that, right?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Could you please describe, to the extent you
7 remember, the sleeping bag in the apartment that
you
8 called the hideout?
9 A. Describe the bag itself?
10 Q. Yes. If you remember. How big it was,
11 where it was, et cetera.
12 A. Near a window. If youre looking at the
13 T.V., to the right of the T.V.
14 Q. And there was no furniture in the apartment
15 that you remember?
16 A. I did not say that.
17 Q. Okay. What did you say?
18 A. I said that there was an L-shaped couch in
19 the hideout somewhere, in the living room, I
20 believe.

21 Q. Okay. And at any time when you claim you

22 were improperly touched, were you sitting on the
23 couch?
24 A. No, I never said that either.
25 Q. During the events that youve described at
26 the hideout --
27 A. Okay.
28 Q. -- where you say you were improperly 4937

1 tickled - okay? --
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. -- were you always on top of the sleeping
4 bag?
5 A. No. The first time I was on a chair.
6 Q. Okay. The second time you were on a
7 sleeping bag, right?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Okay. Did both of those instances start out
10 as tickle contests?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. Okay. And in both of those incidences that
13 youve described, you recall it starting out as
14 innocent sort of tickling and leading to an impr
oper
15 touching, right?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Okay. Now, youve admitted that Mr. Jackson
18 said he would pay you money for completing a boo
k
19 and also for getting As in school, right?

20 A. I remember hearing that on the tape.

21 Q. Do you recall Mr. Jackson saying that to
22 you?
23 MR. ZONEN: Objection; asked and answered.
24 THE COURT: Sustained.
25 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you recall being paid
26 for reading a book?
27 A. I wasnt a reader.
28 Q. Did you ever tell Mr. Jackson, if you 4938

1 remember, Ive completed a book?

2 A. If I did, I dont know.
3 Q. Okay. Do you remember telling Mr. Jackson
4 you got As in school?
5 A. If I did get an A, it was probably in P.E.
6 Q. And do you remember telling that to Mr.
7 Jackson?
8 A. I dont think I ever did. I dont know.
9 Q. Okay. Now, without going into any amounts,
10 when did you ever receive any money?
11 A. From Michael?
12 Q. From a settlement --
13 A. Oh.
14 Q. -- in your case.
15 A. From the settlement?
16 Q. Without going into any amounts, just when
17 did you first receive any money?
18 A. When I turned 18.
19 Q. Okay. Without going into any amounts, do
20 you know if your mother has received any money f
rom

21 Mr. Jackson?
22 A. She has.
23 Q. Do you know approximately when she received
24 money from a settlement?
25 A. I dont.
26 Q. Okay. Do you know if it was before you did?
27 A. I think it was.
28 Q. Okay. Have you ever been approached by 4939

1 anyone in the media who wanted to talk to you abo

ut
2 anything involving Mr. Jackson?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And when did that happen?
5 A. Geez. When I was in junior high; when I
6 was -- shoot, in 93 -- in 93, 94 I think.
7 Recently. Well, actually, not recently. A couple
8 years ago. They -- yeah, the media.
9 Q. Do you know how the media ever heard about
10 you?
11 A. I dont.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. Actually, I talked to a media guy once.
14 Q. Who was that?
15 A. I dont remember. He had a British accent.
16 But I did not say anything about the case, or
17 anything about Michael. What --
18 Q. And when did this happen?
19 MR. ZONEN: Im not sure the witness had
20 completed his answer.

21 MR. MESEREAU: Oh, Im sorry, I thought he

22 had.
23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Were you finished?
24 A. No, I wasnt.
25 Q. My mistake.
26 THE COURT: Lets just stop. There wasnt
27 any question pending. He was in a narrative for
28 some reason. Next question. 4940

1 THE WITNESS: Okay.

2 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you know approximately
3 when you spoke to a representative of the media?
4 A. I dont. I know I was late to class, but I
5 dont. I was in -- probably 92 or 93.
6 Q. How about in recent -- the last couple
7 years, anyone approach you, to your knowledge?
8 A. Well, to my knowledge, no. They tried to,
9 but I somehow always evade them. Not on purpose.
10 It just happens.
11 Q. In your second interview in 1994, you were
12 asked, Did you ever have any discussion with
13 Michael Jackson about whether you should tell
14 anybody about the things you described? Remembe
r
15 that?
16 A. (Shakes head from side to side.)
17 Q. You dont? Okay.
18 A. No, I dont.
19 Q. Okay. Do you remember telling the
20 interviewers, when you were asked do you remembe

r
21 anything that he said, you said, No, Im workin
g on
22 that?
23 A. No.
24 MR. ZONEN: Ill object as to which
25 interview; vague.
26 MR. MESEREAU: In the second interview, Im
27 sorry.
28 Q. In the second interview -- let me rephrase 49
41

1 the question. Ill withdraw it.

2 In the second interview in 1994 - okay? --
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. -- that was recorded - all right? - when
5 asked if Mr. Jackson said anything to you about
6 whether you should discuss what happened, do you
7 remember telling the interviewers, No, but Im
8 working on that?
9 A. I do not remember that.
10 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
11 you the transcript?
12 A. No. But -- you could bring it over.
13 Q. Well, I cant unless youre willing to see
14 if it refreshes your recollection.
15 A. Okay. Bring it over. Ill give it a shot.
16 Ill read it just to see if it refreshes my memo
ry.
17 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach?
18 THE COURT: Yes.
19 MR. ZONEN: Page, Counsel?
20 MR. MESEREAU: Yes. Pages 105, 106.

21 THE WITNESS: Okay.

22 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
23 review those pages --
24 A. I have.
25 Q. -- of your transcript?
26 Do they refresh your recollection about what
27 you said on that subject?
28 A. No, it does not. 4942

1 Q. It doesnt.
2 A. Sorry.
3 Q. Now, in that interview you indicated that
4 you were aware that another boy had sued Mr. Jack
son
5 seeking money, right?
6 MR. ZONEN: Im sorry, which interview?
7 Objection.
8 MR. MESEREAU: Im sorry, the second -- let
9 me rephrase it.
10 Q. In the second interview that you gave in
11 1994 - okay? --
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. -- you indicated that you were aware that
14 someone else had sued Mr. Jackson for money,
15 correct?
16 A. I dont remember.
17 Q. Would it refresh your recollection to look
18 at the transcript?
19 A. Probably not.
20 Q. Okay.

21 A. Both of them are really blurry. It was just

22 hard for me at the time.
23 Q. Well, let me ask you this.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. Looking back, when is the first time you
26 recall you knew someone else had sued Mr. Jackso
n
27 looking for money?
28 A. Probably 16. 4943

1 Q. Excuse me?
2 A. I was probably 16. Because thats when
3 money started being an issue for me.
4 Q. Okay. Now, in your last interview with
5 Prosecutor Zonen - and Im talking about an
6 interview on November 19th, 2004, okay? - Mr. Can
non
7 was present, right?
8 A. I dont know.
9 Q. Do you recall Mr. Cannon not wanting a
10 defense investigator present?
11 A. No, I dont recall.
12 Q. Did you know anything about that?
13 A. No.
14 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. At this time, I have
15 no further questions, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: All right. Redirect?
17
18 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
19 BY MR. ZONEN:
20 Q. Mr. Francia, did you get any money from Mr.

21 Jackson for reading a book?

22 A. I dont think so.
23 Q. Did you ever get any money from Mr. Jackson
24 for getting As?
25 A. I dont think so.
26 Q. Were grades a problem for you when you were
27 in school about that time?
28 A. Shoot, through all my whole life, grades 4944

1 were a problem.
2 Q. Did you -- do you sometimes have difficulty
3 with reading?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. At this time even?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. All right. A lot of questions were asked of
8 you by Mr. Mesereau that dealt with that first
9 interview that took place in 1993, the first time
10 that there was a disclosure. And you indicated,
I
11 believe, that what you said toward the end of th
e
12 interview was very different than what you said
at
13 the beginning of the interview. Would you explai
n
14 that for us, please? Why is that?
15 A. Why there was a difference in the beginning
16 and --
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. Because in the beginning, I thought I could

19 hold them off and make them go away. And they

20 didnt go away. At all. Its kind of an issue wh
en
21 I was 13. I didnt want to tell anybody that Id
22 been molested; that I didnt want to tell anybod
y
23 that anything ever happened to me. Thats weird.
24 Q. Why?
25 A. Because youre 13. Thats weird.
26 Q. What were the issues that you were dealing
27 with at that time about that?
28 A. In fifth grade, I told my friends that I 4945

1 knew Michael Jackson, and I thought it was cool.

My
2 friends thought it was cool. They didnt believe
3 me. But they thought it was cool.
4 In junior high, its no longer cool to know
5 somebody that had issues with kids, because then
6 theyre going to make fun of you.
7 And even at the church, they made fun of me.
8 At the church, worse than school, they made fun o
f
9 me.
10 Q. And you were actually teased?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. You said yesterday to one of Mr. Mesereaus
13 questions that you told the detective, No, Im
not
14 gay. Did you make that statement to them?
15 A. I remember listening to it in the tape. I
16 dont recall saying that. But I remember listeni
ng
17 to it on the tape.
18 Q. Do you recall whether or not that was an

19 issue for you during the course of that intervie

w,
20 that that was one of your concerns, that people
21 would see you as that?
22 A. Yes. That was a concern of mine.
23 Q. You mentioned yesterday to one of Mr.
24 Mesereaus questions that the defendant put the
25 money down your pants. Would you describe that f
or
26 us?
27 A. What do you want to know?
28 Q. Where did the money go? In other words, 4946

1 when he -- when he gave you money, did he hand it

to
2 you, or did he do something else? And if so, tell
3 us what that is.
4 A. He put the money in my shorts, because I
5 pulled it out, and thats when my mom saw -- noti
ced
6 that I had pulled money out of my shorts and she
7 asked me where I got it from.
8 Q. Do you remember which of the three occasions
9 this was?
10 A. I cant remember whether it was the first or
11 the second.
12 Q. But this was back when you were young?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Seven or eight?
15 A. Seven or eight.
16 Q. You say in your shorts. What are we talking
17 about? In a pocket?
18 A. I dont think my mom put pockets on the
19 shorts.

20 Q. That was a little more complicated?

21 A. Shes a good seamstress, but I dont think
22 for shorts.
23 Q. Tell us as best you can recall where would
24 that money have been.
25 A. That would have been in my shorts.
26 Q. Im sorry?
27 A. It would have been in my shorts.
28 Q. In the inside? 4947

1 A. In the inside.
2 Q. Do you know if the money was in your
3 underwear?
4 A. I dont. I dont know.
5 Q. Mr. Mesereau asked you yesterday questions
6 about whether you talked to your mother about wha
t
7 had happened, and if so, to what extent.
8 Did you ever have a conversation with your
9 mother where you told her that you were molested?
10 A. I think I told her that I was molested in
11 counseling, because then she shared that she was
12 molested as well.
13 Q. Okay. Did you ever tell her the details of
14 the molestation?
15 A. No.
16 Q. What had happened, how it happened, how
17 often it happened, any of those types of details
?
18 A. I dont think so.

19 Q. To this day, have you ever?

20 A. To this day. My wife found out on the
21 stand.
22 Q. The details you had not yet told your wife?
23 A. Right.
24 Q. Have you ever told anybody the details other
25 than your therapist?
26 A. My pastor.
27 Q. Your pastor?
28 A. And I dont think I told him the details. 494
8

1 MR. ZONEN: Thank you. I have no further

2 questions.
3 THE COURT: Recross?
4 MR. MESEREAU: No further questions, Your
5 Honor.
6 THE COURT: All right. You may step down.
7 He needs to move away.
8 MR. SNEDDON: Dont forget your jacket.
9 Call Kris Kallman, Your Honor.
10 THE COURT: Come forward to the witness
11 stand, please. When you get to the witness stand
,
12 remain standing.
13 Face the clerk and raise your right hand.
14
15 KRIS KALLMAN
16 Having been sworn, testified as follows:
17
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 THE CLERK: Please be seated. State and
20 spell your name for the record.

21 THE WITNESS: My name is Kris, K-r-i-s,

22 Kallman, K-a-l-l-m-a-n.
23 THE CLERK: Thank you.
24
25 DIRECT EXAMINATION
26 BY MR. SNEDDON:
27 Q. Good morning, Mr. Kallman.
28 A. Good morning, Mr. Sneddon. 4949

1 Q. Youre an attorney?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Licensed to practice in the State of
4 California?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. And what is your brief educational
7 background to prepare you for the practice of law
in
8 the State of California?
9 A. Well, I graduated from Santa Barbara High
10 School. Went to Santa Barbara City College.
11 Graduated from Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. Went to
12 Pepperdine University Law School.
13 Q. Do you have a certain area of law that you
14 specialize in?
15 A. Yes. I am a civil trial lawyer, and for the
16 most part, I represent people that get injured d
ue
17 to the fault of another person or company.
18 Q. How long have you been practicing law in the
19 State of California?

20 A. 29 years.
21 Q. And how long have you lived in Santa Barbara
22 County?
23 A. My whole life, except when I was away at
24 college.
25 Q. And where do you live in Santa Barbara
26 County?
27 A. I live in Santa Barbara, on the mesa, in the
28 city. 4950

1 Q. Now, during the time that youve practiced

2 law in Santa Barbara County, have you had associa
tes
3 that have practiced with you in your firm?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Are you a sole practitioner?
6 A. Essentially. Although I currently have two
7 lawyers that office with me and they act as of
8 counsel. Theyre not employees, but they help me
9 out on cases.
10 Q. Are you familiar with an attorney by the
11 name of Terry Cannon?
12 A. I sure am.
13 Q. And how long have you known Mr. Cannon?
14 A. Oh, Ive known Mr. Cannon for at least 20
15 years.
16 Q. And at some point in time prior to today,
17 was Mr. Cannon one of the people who was associa
ted
18 with you in the practice of -- your civil practi
ce?

19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And during what period of time was that; do
21 you recall?
22 A. Well, the relevant period here would have
23 been in the early to mid 90s.
24 Q. And at that time Mr. Cannon was practicing
25 with you?
26 A. He was associating with me on certain cases.
27 Q. And do you recall where Mr. Cannon was
28 residing at that particular point in time? 4951

1 A. I believe he was living in Santa Barbara.

2 Q. Now, at some later time, did Mr. Cannon
3 leave your association and take up the practice o
f
4 law somewhere else?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. To your knowledge, where was that?
7 A. In Oregon.
8 Q. And then after that, did Mr. Cannon come
9 back?
10 A. He came back to San Luis Obispo County, and
11 then moved to San Diego County.
12 Q. And at this particular point in time, do you
13 know where Mr. Cannon is?
14 A. Not exactly this moment. But I happen to
15 know that he bought a condominium here in Orcutt
.
16 Q. And is he, once again, associated with you
17 in the practice of law?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Now, did you have occasion to represent

20 Jason Francia in some litigation?

21 A. He and his mother, yes.
22 Q. And can you tell us, did you ever prepare a
23 lawsuit on behalf of Jason Francia?
24 A. We prepared a Complaint, which is a document
25 thats the beginning of a lawsuit, yes.
26 Q. And when you say we, whos we?
27 A. Mr. Cannon and myself.
28 Q. So Mr. Cannon was working with you on that 49
52

1 particular case?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. And after the preparation of that
4 document -- well, with regard to that document, w
hat
5 were the allegations set forth in the proposed
6 Complaint to be filed?
7 A. Well, its been --
8 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Hearsay;
9 relevance.
10 THE COURT: Sustained.
11 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Who was the individual that
12 the Complaint was directed towards?
13 A. Mr. Jackson.
14 Q. At some point in time, did you have contact
15 with individuals who were representing Mr. Jacks
on
16 over the proposed filing of the criminal -- of t
he
17 civil complaint?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And who did you make contact with?

20 A. Initially our contacts were with Johnnie

21 Cochran and his associate, Carl Douglas.
22 Q. Do you recall approximately when it was when
23 you first made contact with Mr. -- or when conta
ct
24 was made between you and Mr. Cochran and Mr.
25 Douglas?
26 A. It was either late 94 or early 95.
27 Q. Did you, after your conversations with those
28 individuals, file the civil lawsuit? 4953

1 A. No.
2 Q. At some point in time later, were you then
3 dealing with other lawyers with regard to the
4 proposed filing of that civil lawsuit?
5 A. Yes. At some point, Mr. Jacksons
6 representation was assumed by a lawyer named Zia
7 Modabber, and a lawyer named Howard Weitzman.
8 Q. And do you recall approximately when it was
9 that you then began contact with those particular
10 individuals?
11 A. I believe it was in mid 1995.
12 Q. And the purpose of those contacts?
13 A. Well, the --
14 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Vague;
15 foundation.
16 THE COURT: Overruled.
17 You may answer.
18 THE WITNESS: The purpose of the contacts
19 was that they knew that we had a Complaint that
we

20 were about to file in Santa Barbara County Super

ior
21 Court, and they didnt want us to do that.
22 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Hearsay;
23 foundation.
24 THE COURT: The answer is stricken.
25 Sustained.
26 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: As a result of the
27 conversations between these individuals, did you
28 pursue your lawsuit? 4954

1 A. Well, we never filed the lawsuit.

2 Q. Did you reach an agreement, a settlement
3 agreement?
4 A. Yes, we did.
5 Q. Did you reach a settlement agreement in
6 which Jason Francia received monetary compensatio
n
7 from Mr. Jackson?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Did you receive -- did you reach an
10 agreement in which Blanca Francia received monet
ary
11 compensation from Mr. Jackson?
12 A. Yes, we did.
13 Q. During the time that you were
14 representing -- during the time that you had
15 prepared a Complaint ready to be filed and you w
ere
16 in contact with attorneys representing Mr. Jacks
on,
17 can you give the ladies and gentlemen of the jur
y an
18 idea of how old Jason Francia was at that partic

ular
19 point in time?
20 A. Well, he was about 14 years old. Hes 24
21 now, as I understand it, and were talking about
22 things that happened just about exactly ten year
s
23 ago.
24 Q. And in your position as a civil litigator,
25 at the time that an individual is of minority, a
t
26 the age of 14, how do you deal with representing
a
27 person like that?
28 A. Well, a child -- 4955

1 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Vague;

2 foundation; relevance.
3 THE COURT: Overruled.
4 You may complete your answer.
5 THE WITNESS: A child, under California law,
6 under the age of 18, is not permitted to enter in
to
7 a contract. I suppose he or she could, but it
8 wouldnt be enforceable. So the only way a child
9 can act legally is through a guardian ad litem. A
nd
10 its normally the parent and normally the mother
.
11 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Was that the case in this
12 particular instance?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, during the course of the time that you
15 were involved in obtaining a settlement from Mr.
16 Jackson on behalf of the Francias, did you deal
17 personally with Jason at any time?
18 A. Yeah. Sure.

19 Q. In what respect?
20 A. Well, I knew who he was, I met with him. I
21 met with he and his mom. He was a teenaged boy,
and
22 a nice young man.
23 Q. Now, at some point in time was Jason
24 required to sign some kind of documents in
25 conjunction with the settlement?
26 A. Yes. When he turned 18, part of the
27 condition was that he sign a confidentiality
28 agreement. 4956

1 Q. Now, with regard to the confidentiality --

2 and to your knowledge, did he sign that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And with regard to the confidentiality
5 agreement, did it have a provision that required
6 notice to Mr. Jackson in the event that Jason
7 Francia talked to anybody?
8 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Leading; move to
9 strike.
10 THE COURT: Overruled.
11 You may answer.
12 THE WITNESS: I believe so, yes.
13 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: And what was the
14 requirement notice in the confidentiality agreem
ent
15 with regard to notice to the defense?
16 A. I believe its five days.
17 Q. And were you at some point contacted by Mr.
18 Zonen of our department with regard to interview
ing
19 your -- Jason Francia?

20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And in that particular case, did you
22 indicate to Mr. Zonen that you would have to do
23 something before you could agree with that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And what was that?
26 A. Well, Id have to notify somebody on Mr.
27 Jacksons legal staff that they wanted to talk t
o
28 him. 4957

1 Q. And did you do that?

2 A. Yeah. Yes. Excuse me.
3 Q. And did you then grant permission for Mr.
4 Zonen to have a conversation with your -- with Ja
son
5 Francia?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, were you present during the
8 conversations between Jason Francia and Mr. Zonen
?
9 A. I dont think so. I think I was there, and
10 then I think I had to go to another court or
11 something like that. I dont remember being an
12 integral part of any of those -- if there was mo
re
13 than one, I dont even know.
14 Q. And Im talking about the conversations that
15 occurred after you gave notice to the defense in
16 this case, or gave notice to Mr. Jackson. To you
r
17 knowledge, was Mr. Cannon present?
18 A. I believe so. At least for part of it.

19 Again, Im not certain.

20 Q. Do you remember when it was that you
21 finally -- the year that you finally reached a
22 settlement agreement with Mr. Jackson?
23 A. Yes. Its been a long time. But it was a
24 big deal. And I do remember --
25 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;
26 move to strike.
27 THE COURT: The answer is stricken.
28 Nonresponsive. 4958

1 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Just --

2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what year was that, approximately?
4 A. It was either 95 or 96, I believe.
5 THE COURT: Counsel, well take our break.
6 (Recess taken.)
7 --o0o--
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20

21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 4959

1 REPORTERS CERTIFICATE
2
3
4 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE )
5 OF CALIFORNIA, )
6 Plaintiff, )
7 -vs- ) No. 1133603
8 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
9 Defendant. )
10
11
12 I, MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR,
13 CSR #3304, Official Court Reporter, do hereby
14 certify:
15 That the foregoing pages 4902 through 4959
16 contain a true and correct transcript of the
17 proceedings had in the within and above-entitled
18 matter as by me taken down in shorthand writing
at
19 said proceedings on April 5, 2005, and thereafte
r

20 reduced to typewriting by computer-aided

21 transcription under my direction.
22 DATED: Santa Maria, California,
23 April 5, 2005.
24
25
26
27 MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 4960

1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SANTA BARBARA
3 SANTA MARIA BRANCH; COOK STREET DIVISION
4 DEPARTMENT SM-2 HON. RODNEY S. MELVILLE, JUDGE
5
6
7 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF )
8 CALIFORNIA, )
9 Plaintiff, )
10 -vs- ) No. 1133603
11 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
12 Defendant. )
13
14
15
16
17 REPORTERS TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
18
19 TUESDAY, APRIL 5, 2005
20

21 8:30 A.M.
22
23 (PAGES 4961 THROUGH 5156)
24
25
26
27 REPORTED MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #
3304
28 BY: Official Court Reporter 4961

1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2
3 For Plaintiff: THOMAS W. SNEDDON, JR.,
4 District Attorney -and-
5 RONALD J. ZONEN, Sr. Deputy District Attorney
6 -and- GORDON AUCHINCLOSS,
7 Sr. Deputy District Attorney 1112 Santa Barbara S
treet
8 Santa Barbara, California 93101
9
10
11 For Defendant: COLLINS, MESEREAU, REDDOCK & YU B
Y: THOMAS A.
MESEREAU, JR., ESQ.
12 -and- SUSAN C. YU, ESQ.
13 1875 Century Park East, Suite 700 Los Angeles, C
alifornia 90067
14 -and-
15 SANGER & SWYSEN
16 BY: ROBERT M. SANGER, ESQ. 233 East Carrillo Str
eet, Suite C
17 Santa Barbara, California 93101
18 -and-

19 OXMAN and JAROSCAK BY: R. BRIAN OXMAN, ESQ.

20 14126 East Rosecrans Boulevard Santa Fe Springs,
California 90670
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 4962

1 I N D E X
2
3 Note: Mr. Sneddon is listed as SN on index.
4 Mr. Zonen is listed as Z on index. Mr. Auchincl
oss is listed as A on index.
5 Mr. Nicola is listed as N on index. Mr. Meserea
u is listed as M on index.
6 Ms. Yu is listed as Y on index. Mr. Sanger is l
isted as SA on index.
7 Mr. Oxman is listed as O on index.
8
9 PLAINTIFFS
10 WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
11 KALLMAN, Kris 4966-M
12 FRANCIA, Blanca 4977-Z 5057-M 5130-Z 5154-M
13
14
15
16
17
18
19

20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 4963

1 E X H I B I T S
2 FOR IN
3 PLAINTIFFS NO. DESCRIPTION I.D. EVID.
4 781 Photograph 5054 5056
5 782 Photograph 5054 5056
6 783 Photograph 5145 5150
7 784 Photograph 5145 5150
8 785 Photograph 5145
9 786 Photograph 5145 5150
10 787 Photograph 5145 5150
11 788 Photograph 5145 5150
12 789 Photograph 5145 5150
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20

21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 4964

1 THE COURT: Counsel?

2 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, Ive just about
3 completed my examination. But I would request if
we
4 could approach the bench for just one second. I
5 dont want to run afoul of the Court.
6 THE COURT: All right.
7 (Discussion held off the record at sidebar.)
8 THE COURT: (To the jury) All right. Knock
9 it off.
10 (Laughter.)
11 THE COURT: Okay. Counsel, you may proceed.
12 MR. SNEDDON: All right.
13 Q. Mr. Kallman, I think I just have a couple
14 questions left.
15 I think where we were headed before the
16 break was you told us the approximate year in wh
ich
17 the case actually reached a settlement.
18 And what I wanted to know was, after the
19 settlement of the case, have you kept in contact

20 with Jason over the years?

21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And to your knowledge, has Mr. Cannon kept
23 in contact with Jason over the years?
24 A. I believe so.
25 Q. Now, with regard to the lawsuit that was
26 contemplated against Mr. Jackson at the time, th
e
27 basis of the -- of the nature of the representat
ion
28 of Jason Francia involved inappropriate sexual 4
965

1 conduct against Jason by the defendant, Mr. Jacks

on?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. SNEDDON: Nothing further, Your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Cross-examine?
5 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, please. Your Honor.
6
7 CROSS-EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. MESEREAU:
9 Q. Good morning, Mr. Kallman.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. My name is Thomas Mesereau and I speak for
12 Mr. Jackson.
13 A. Pleasure to meet you.
14 Q. I want to ask you some questions about the
15 settlement agreement you referred to in response
to
16 the prosecutors questions, okay?
17 First of all, you had separate settlement
18 agreements for the mother, Blanca Francia, and t
he
19 son, Jason Francia, correct?

20 A. I believe so. I can tell you, I have not

21 reviewed this material and its been ten years,
but
22 I believe that was the case. Some of this Im go
ing
23 to have to take your word for it.
24 Q. Well, I can show you a copy if you need it.
25 A. I dont disbelieve that.
26 Q. Okay. The settlement agreement with Blanca
27 Francia was entered into approximately April 1st
,
28 1996, right? 4966

1 A. I dont know.
2 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
3 you a copy of the agreement?
4 A. Sure.
5 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 THE WITNESS: Thats what it says.
8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: The settlement agreement
9 with Jason Francia was entered into approximately
10 June 1st, 1998, right?
11 A. Dont know.
12 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just
13 show you a copy of it?
14 A. Sure.
15 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 THE WITNESS: Thats what it says.
18 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Now, that would
19 suggest, wouldnt it, that the mother had agreed
to

20 get money for herself before there was any agree

ment
21 for Jason to get money in a settlement, right?
22 A. No, it was all part of one global
23 settlement.
24 Q. Then why would there be a two-year
25 difference between the execution of those settle
ment
26 agreements?
27 A. Remember when I told the jury that a minor
28 cant enter into a contract? 4967

1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Jason wouldnt have been able to sign before
3 he was 18. My guess is thats probably when he
4 turned 18, and thats what Mr. Weitzman and Modab
ber
5 wanted.
6 Q. And then just for the jurys benefit, why
7 would the mother sign in 96?
8 A. She was an adult. She could sign.
9 Q. The point Im making is that she had a
10 separate settlement from her son.
11 A. Exactly. I mean -- yes. She got money.
12 Q. Yes. Okay. Now, the prosecutor asked you
13 some questions about provisions in the settlemen
t
14 agreement, okay? And one of the issues that was
15 carefully negotiated by the people representing
Mr.
16 Jackson was that he deny any wrongdoing in that
17 agreement, right?
18 A. Again, the best evidence of that would be
19 whats in the agreement. I dont remember whats

in
20 there.
21 Q. Okay. Well, let me -- the prosecutor read
22 you a provision, asked you about it.
23 Let me ask you about this: There was
24 language in that agreement that said, The parti
es
25 acknowledge that Jackson has elected to settle t
he
26 claims solely in view of the potential impact an
y
27 litigation could have in the future on his
28 reputation, earnings and potential income, and n
ot 4968

1 because of any alleged wrongful conduct on his

2 part, right?
3 A. If youre asking me if thats in the
4 document, Ill have to take your word for it. You
5 dont need to show it to me. It sounds pretty
6 standard to me.
7 Q. The agreement further said -- excuse me, let
8 me rephrase that.
9 Both agreements, the one involving Jason and
10 the one involving Blanca, his mother, both had
11 language which said, This agreement shall not,
in
12 any manner, be construed as an admission by Jack
son
13 that he has acted wrongfully with respect to
14 Francia, Blanca, or any other person, or at all,
or
15 that Francia or Blanca have any rights whatsoeve
r
16 against Jackson or Jacksons releasees. Sound
17 familiar to you?
18 A. It sounds like standard language in

19 virtually every release that I deal with. But, y

es,
20 it does sound familiar.
21 Q. Actually, theres a whole separate paragraph
22 entitled, Denial of Claims by Mr. Jackson,
23 correct?
24 A. Dont know.
25 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
26 you a copy?
27 A. It would.
28 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor? 4969

1 THE COURT: Yes.

2 THE WITNESS: It does refresh my
3 recollection.
4 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. And do you recall
5 that language being in both agreements?
6 A. I believe so, yes, sir.
7 Q. Okay. In addition to the language that I
8 have read, theres further language which says,
9 Jackson specifically disclaims any liability to,
10 and denies any wrongful acts against, Francia,
11 Blanca or any other person and may continue to d
o so
12 publicly, to the extent reasonably necessary, to
13 respond to any inquiries in this regard. Right?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. It said further, The parties acknowledge
16 that Jackson is a public figure, and that his na
me,
17 image and likeness have commercial value and are
an

18 important element of his earning capacity. Righ

t?
19 A. Thats true.
20 Q. And that language was in both settlement
21 agreements, the one involving Blanca Francia and
the
22 one involving Jason Francia, correct?
23 A. I dont remember that. I will take your
24 word for it. You dont need to refresh my
25 recollection. It sounds like it should be or wou
ld
26 be.
27 Q. Now, Mr. Kallman, provisions in which a
28 settling party denies liability are fairly stand
ard 4970

1 in settlement agreements, right?

2 A. True.
3 Q. But the language that I just read to the
4 jury is not standard language in a settlement
5 agreement, is it?
6 A. This is not a standard case, or was not.
7 And no, youre right. These were carefully drafte
d
8 by a team of lawyers, and we agreed to the terms.
9 Q. And the reason those terms are different is
10 because Mr. Jackson is an unusual individual in
11 terms of his need to preserve his reputation and
12 public image so he can earn a living, right?
13 MR. SNEDDON: Calls for speculation on this.
14 It wasnt drafted by him. No foundation.
15 MR. MESEREAU: I think it was drafted by
16 this witness.
17 THE COURT: All right. Ill sustain a
18 foundation.
19 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.

20 Q. When you settled these matters - and Im

21 talking about matters involving Michael Jackson,
22 Blanca Francia, and Jason Francia - you put in
23 language involving denial of claims by Mr. Jacks
on
24 that was not standard language in a typical
25 settlement agreement, right?
26 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, Im going to
27 object to the question as lack of foundation; th
at
28 he put the language in there. 4971

1 THE COURT: Well, that was the foundation I

2 was looking for.
3 So Ill allow you to answer the question as
4 long as you understand the limitations of your
5 answer.
6 THE WITNESS: Well --
7 THE COURT: If you put the language in.
8 THE WITNESS: I didnt draft that agreement.
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did lawyers from your
11 office draft the agreement?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Who drafted the agreement?
14 A. Somebody in Mr. Modabbers office, the
15 Katten, Muchin, Zavis & Weitzman firm in Century
16 City.
17 Q. Did you have any input into the language in
18 the agreement?
19 A. Only to review it. And if there was
20 language we found objectionable, we could strike

it,
21 I suppose.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. But they wanted that in there, and I didnt
24 find it objectionable.
25 Q. Okay. Now, you made a statement, I believe,
26 in response to the prosecutors questions, that
if
27 someone from law enforcement wanted to speak to
your
28 client, you had to first notify representatives
of 4972

1 Mr. Jackson, true?

2 A. True.
3 Q. That -- really, that language is not in that
4 agreement, is it?
5 A. I dont know.
6 Q. Then why would you say it?
7 A. Because thats part -- in one of the
8 agreements, I have to give notice to the defense
9 team. And Ive given notice once to Mr. Sanger.
10 And then when I got subpoenaed on Friday, I gave
11 notice to Mr. Modabber down in Los Angeles.
12 Q. But the notice youre supposed to give to
13 the defense team does not involve requests by la
w
14 enforcement to speak to your client, does it?
15 A. I assume that anybody from law enforcement
16 that wants to talk to my client, there was a
17 requirement to notify somebody from the defense
18 team.
19 Q. Nowhere in those settlement agreements is

20 there language to that effect, is there?

21 A. I have no idea.
22 MR. SNEDDON: Object as immaterial;
23 irrelevant.
24 MR. MESEREAU: The prosecutor brought it up
25 on direct, Your Honor.
26 THE COURT: The objection is overruled. And
27 the answer came in as, I have no idea.
28 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: It would be against public 4
973

1 policy for a civil litigator to put language in a

2 settlement agreement precluding anyone from
3 cooperating with law enforcement, wouldnt it?
4 A. In my opinion, yes.
5 Q. Lawyers are not allowed to have language
6 like that in settlement agreements, right?
7 A. Wrong.
8 Q. Pardon me?
9 A. No. Its a notice requirement. Its not a
10 preclusion requirement.
11 Q. When did you last review the notice
12 provisions in these agreements?
13 A. Probably in 1996 or 1997.
14 Q. Well, let me ask you this question: Did you
15 talk with Mr. Sneddon about what questions he wa
s
16 going to ask you before you testified today?
17 A. No. I mean, we talked, but it was very,
18 very general and I dont think the conversation
was
19 more than five or ten minutes long.

20 Q. Okay. The notice provisions that you

21 describe talk primarily about anyone whos suing
Mr.
22 Jackson or if hes contacted by the media, corre
ct?
23 A. I dont -- not the notice provisions Im
24 thinking about. I think theres a specific
25 provision -- it may not be in that agreement. Ma
ybe
26 its in another agreement, but theres a provisi
on
27 that Im supposed to contact either Johnnie Coch
ran
28 or Zia Modabber or somebody on the defense team
if 4974

1 there was a request to speak or interview my

2 clients.
3 Q. But never in the agreement did it refer to
4 law enforcement, right?
5 A. That I dont remember. Its been a long
6 time.
7 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, you answered some
8 questions about Terry Cannon.
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. When did -- excuse me, youre currently
11 associated with Mr. Cannon, correct?
12 A. He is of counsel to my law firm.
13 Q. When did he become of counsel to your law
14 firm.
15 A. Hes been of counsel twice. Once about
16 ten years ago, during this period, and then agai
n
17 just recently, within the last two months.
18 Q. So he wasnt of counsel to your law firm
19 in October, November and December of last year,
20 right?

21 A. I dont believe so, but I cant be sure.

22 Q. During October, November and December of
23 last year, he was with the District Attorneys
24 Office in San Diego, wasnt he?
25 A. Well, I know he recently retired from the
26 San Diego D.A.s Office. I dont know precisely
27 when he retired, but youre right, its been rec
ent.
28 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. No further questions, 4975

1 Your Honor.
2 MR. SNEDDON: No questions, Your Honor.
3 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. You may
4 step down.
5 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor.
6 MR. ZONEN: Well call Blanca Francia to the
7 stand.
8 THE COURT: Come to the front of the
9 courtroom, please.
10 When you get to the witness stand, remain
11 standing. Face the clerk over here, and raise yo
ur
12 right hand.
13 Remain standing.
14 BAILIFF CORTEZ: Remain standing.
15 THE COURT: Face the clerk here. Right over
16 here.
17 BAILIFF CORTEZ: Right over there, please.
18
19 BLANCA FRANCIA
20 Having been sworn, testified as follows:

21
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
23 THE CLERK: Please be seated. State and
24 spell your name for the record.
25 THE WITNESS: Blanca Francia. B-l-a-n-c-a;
26 F-r-a-n-c-i-a.
27 BAILIFF CORTEZ: Maam, you need to move
28 over here, please. 4976

1 THE WITNESS: Oh.

2 MR. ZONEN: Would you like her to spell her
3 name again?
4 THE COURT: Did the court reporter get the
5 spelling?
6 THE REPORTER: Yes.
7 THE COURT: Thats fine.
8 THE JURY: (In unison) We didnt.
9 (Laughter.)
10 THE COURT: Yes, please ask her to spell her
11 name again.
12 MR. ZONEN: Could you please spell your name
13 again?
14 THE WITNESS: B-l-a-n-c-a; F-r-a-n-c-i-a.
15
16 DIRECT EXAMINATION
17 BY MR. ZONEN:
18 Q. Miss Francia, good morning.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. Do you currently live in Santa Barbara

21 County?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Up in the North County area?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. Are you the mother of Jason Francia?
26 A. Yes, I am.
27 Q. What kind of work are you currently doing?
28 A. Caregiving. 4977

1 Q. All right. What we need to do, we have a

2 problem here. And its not just with you, a lot o
f
3 witnesses. You have to be as close as you can get
4 to the microphone so that you can be heard all th
e
5 way to the back of the courtroom. Okay?
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. All right. Are you the mother of Jason
8 Francia?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what kind of work are you currently
11 doing?
12 A. Caregiving.
13 Q. Im sorry?
14 A. Caregiving.
15 Q. And what does that mean, a caregiver?
16 A. Taking care of elderly people. Disabled.
17 Q. Do you have a couple clients who you work
18 for?
19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And are they disabled in some fashion?

21 A. Yes. I deal with one six years, almost six
22 years, yeah.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. And another one just recently, about a
25 couple of months.
26 Q. And how long have you been doing this kind
27 of work?
28 A. On and off, Ive been doing it for about 15 4
978

1 years.
2 Q. And prior to that, what kind of work did you
3 do?
4 A. Housekeeping. Housecleaning.
5 Q. And for what period of time did you do that
6 work?
7 A. Since I came to the country.
8 Q. When did you come to the United States?
9 A. 1975.
10 Q. And from what country did you come from?
11 A. El Salvador.
12 Q. You have been to -- in this country
13 continuously since 1975?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Have you been back to El Salvador to visit
16 at all?
17 A. A couple of times.
18 Q. Your English, how did you learn English?
19 Did you go to school?
20 A. No.

21 Q. How did you learn English?

22 A. Reading, and listening to people, and
23 thats --
24 Q. How old were you when you came to this
25 country?
26 A. About 21.
27 Q. Okay. Do you know Mr. Jackson, Michael
28 Jackson? 4979

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you see him in this courtroom?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Would you indicate where he is sitting,
5 please?
6 A. Hes sitting right there.
7 MR. ZONEN: Your Honor, could the court
8 record reflect that the witness has identified th
e
9 defendant?
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: How do you know Mr. Jackson?
12 A. I work -- work about five years.
13 Q. When did you begin working for Mr. Jackson?
14 A. 1986.
15 Q. And where did you begin working for Mr.
16 Jackson, at what location?
17 A. Havenhurst. Encino, California.
18 Q. Havenhurst is the name of the street?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And was there a house on that street --

21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- where he lived?
23 All right. What were you doing for Mr.
24 Jackson at the Havenhurst residence?
25 A. I was hired to be his personal housekeeper.
26 Q. Were there other members of the Jackson
27 family living at the Havenhurst residence?
28 A. Yes. 4980

1 Q. Can you tell us who they were?

2 A. At that time Janet and LaToya, and his
3 father and mother.
4 Q. Would you describe the Havenhurst residence
5 for us, just briefly? A large home?
6 A. Their whole house? Yeah. He has his
7 separate quarters in the house. But it was in the
8 same house.
9 Q. Okay. Was it a large home?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And his quarters, were you responsible for
12 just his quarters or did you clean in the whole
13 house?
14 A. Well, yes, just his quarters. His place.
15 But eventually when he will go out on tour, I wi
ll
16 stay at the house and help the household.
17 Q. You would clean the rest of the house as
18 well?
19 A. Uh-huh.

20 Q. Did Mr. Jackson ever have an additional

21 residence other than the residence on Havenhurst
?
22 A. After I was there for about a year, I think,
23 or less than a year, he got another one. Like --
24 kind of an apartment, suite. Called it The
25 Hideout.
26 Q. Where was that; do you know?
27 A. I know its on Wilshire. And I dont know
28 the other street. 4981

1 Q. And describe that location for us, if you

2 would.
3 A. What do you mean?
4 Q. Tell us what it was like, his apartment.
5 A. Oh.
6 Q. Or his residence. How many rooms in it; do
7 you know? Do you recall?
8 A. Three. It had a master bedroom, and two
9 other rooms, bedrooms.
10 Q. Did it have a living room?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I assume a kitchen?
13 A. Kitchen, and another little room.
14 Q. Okay. At least a couple bathrooms?
15 A. I dont remember.
16 Q. You dont recall --
17 A. No.
18 Q. -- how many bathrooms?
19 A. I dont remember.
20 Q. Its okay. Do you recall for what period of

21 time you cleaned that residence?

22 A. For about a year.
23 Q. Was he living at that residence during that
24 time, Mr. Jackson?
25 A. Yeah, he totally move his --
26 Q. Im sorry?
27 A. He totally move from Encino to that hide --
28 to that place. He move his office to -- to near
4982

1 that location.
2 Q. Okay. Was there a bed at that residence?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Never?
5 A. Never.
6 Q. The whole time that you were cleaning there?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Okay. Did you go to a different location
9 after the hideout? Was there yet another residenc
e?
10 A. Yeah, he was in process to get a ranch.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. In Los Olivos.
13 Q. And was that Neverland?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Was that the ranch that he actually did
16 purchase?
17 A. Uh-huh. Yes.
18 Q. Did he move to that ranch?
19 A. Eventually, yeah. But he was on and off.
20 They sent me over here before he moved in.

21 I mean --
22 Q. Im not sure I understood that, They sent
23 me over here before he moved in. Who is they,
24 first of all?
25 A. Well, they arrange, Mr. Jackson and Bill
26 Bray and one of the secretaries.
27 Q. Okay. Bill Bray was who?
28 A. His personal assistant I guess. 4983

1 Q. All right. And you said, They sent me

2 here. Where is here?
3 A. Santa Maria.
4 Q. Santa Maria. So did you actually move to
5 Santa Maria?
6 A. Yeah. They pay me to move here.
7 Q. And did you move with your child?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is Jason your only child?
10 A. My only son.
11 Q. Did Jason grow up with his father at all?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Has he had contact with his father at all?
14 A. No.
15 Q. How old was Jason when you moved to Santa
16 Maria?
17 A. I guess about nine.
18 Q. About nine years old?
19 A. Eight or nine, yeah.
20 Q. Okay. Did you continue working for Mr.

21 Jackson after you moved to Santa Maria?

22 A. Excuse me?
23 Q. Did you continuing to work for Mr. Jackson --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- after you moved to Santa Maria?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And was that at Neverland?
28 A. Yes. 4984

1 Q. All right. What were your responsibilities

2 at Neverland? What did you do for Mr. Jackson?
3 A. To clean his room.
4 Q. Im sorry?
5 A. To clean his bedroom. And taking care of
6 his clothes and his personal stuff.
7 Q. All right.
8 A. His -- all his -- you know, whatever he
9 needed. And to clean up and arrange all his
10 clothes, press them, iron them, and, you know,
11 everything.
12 Q. What was your schedule at Neverland? How
13 often did you work there?
14 A. In the beginning, I think I was just -- he
15 was there, I will come, you know, and work for t
hree
16 days, whatever time he will stay there, and then
,
17 you know, not to be there for another two days.
But
18 eventually he move to -- like to 9:00 to 5:00.
19 Q. Five days a week?

20 A. Five days a week. Six days.

21 Q. Six days? Did you ever work more than 9:00
22 to 5:00?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Your hours, times, would they vary different
25 days?
26 A. Yeah. Christmastime and -- you know,
27 whatever time they needed me, because he was the
re.
28 Q. Were there occasions that you would work 4985

1 late?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you say six days a week. Was that
4 common?
5 A. Was that what?
6 Q. Was that a common event, that you would work
7 six days a week?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Okay. During that time, did you ever bring
10 Jason with you to work? And by this time, Im
11 referring to at Neverland.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. Did you ever bring Jason to work with
14 you at the Havenhurst residence in Encino?
15 A. Yes, it was.
16 Q. Did you ever bring Jason to work with you at
17 the hideout on Wilshire Boulevard?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. And why did you do that?
20 A. Well, the first time I didnt know that

21 I was allowed to do it. But Mr. Jackson asked me

22 to -- to bring him.
23 Q. You said the first time. Where was that?
24 A. At the Encino house.
25 Q. At the Encino house?
26 A. Yeah.
27 Q. Did he say why?
28 A. He just told me to bring him. 4986

1 Q. Okay. And did you bring him on occasion?

2 A. Yeah. From then on, he was there a lot of
3 times.
4 Q. Okay. How often would you bring him to the
5 residence at Encino?
6 A. Probably every weekend. And probably twice
7 a month, then, different -- differently. I dont
8 remember.
9 Q. Was that schedule more or less at the
10 hideout? Did you bring him to the hideout as oft
en?
11 More often?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. Less often? What?
14 A. Not a lot of times, because he was in
15 school, so probably on Saturday or Sundays.
16 Q. Did you continue cleaning at the hideout
17 even after Mr. Jackson moved to Neverland in 88
?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How often?

20 A. Probably every week. Sometimes twice a

21 week.
22 Q. At Neverland, what were your specific
23 responsibilities? What were your obligations? Wh
at
24 did you do at Neverland?
25 A. Do you mean for him?
26 Q. Yes, for Mr. Jackson. Yes.
27 A. Like I said, taking care of his clothes, his
28 room. 4987

1 Q. Okay.
2 A. And right after he leave the room, I will
3 have to clean it right away, because sometime he
4 will stay there, you know, hell come out, and th
en
5 hell go back in right away.
6 Q. Okay. Were your responsibilities beyond his
7 room as well? In other words, did you clean the
8 rest of the house?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you ever clean other buildings at
11 Neverland?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The arcade?
14 A. The arcade, yeah.
15 Q. The theater?
16 A. The theater.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. Most of the time where did you work?
20 A. In the house.

21 Q. Were there other maids at Neverland --

22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- who were -- there were other maids at
24 Neverland?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Yes, all right. At any given time, how many
27 maids were working at Neverland at any given tim
e?
28 A. Maybe about six. 4988

1 Q. Were there others who had responsibility for

2 cleaning Mr. Jacksons bedroom?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You were the only one?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Did you have a key?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is that the only way you got in?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Was there a combination lock at any point?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Not while you were there? Is that a key
13 that you carried around with you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Would you just let yourself in?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How would you announce your presence? How
18 would you let Mr. Jackson know you were coming i
n,
19 if, in fact, he was there?
20 A. Ill knock.

21 Q. Uh-huh. Now, could you describe the suite

22 that is his bedroom? Its actually more than one
23 room; is that right?
24 A. Yeah. Its two rooms. One downstairs and
25 one upstairs.
26 Q. And is there a hallway that goes into it?
27 A. Closet.
28 Q. Im sorry? 4989

1 A. A closet.
2 Q. Theres a closet, okay.
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. When you go --
5 A. A walk-in closet.
6 Q. When you go into his suite, do you go
7 through a door that is locked?
8 A. No.
9 Q. All right. Is there any way of securing his
10 bedroom suite?
11 A. Well, his bedroom suite, with a key --
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. -- that I would have.
14 Q. Where is that door, the one that you unlock
15 with the key that you carry?
16 A. In the hallway.
17 Q. In the hallway?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. So you unlock that door and you go through
20 that door. And where do you find yourself at tha
t

21 point?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Im sorry?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Where are you? As soon as you walk through
26 that door, the door that you unlock, where are y
ou
27 at that point? Are you in a room or a hallway?
28 A. In the bedroom. 4990

1 Q. In the bedroom, all right.

2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. Was there at that time some kind of an alarm
4 or a bell?
5 A. Yeah, thats before you get to the door.
6 Q. Before you get to the door?
7 A. Yeah, thats in the hallway.
8 Q. All right. And you would announce your
9 presence when you came in?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Were there ever occasions that you would
12 announce your presence and Mr. Jackson would be
in
13 the room?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Were there ever occasions where you would
16 announce your presence and he wasnt there?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. Did you try to go to his room when he wasnt
19 there to clean?
20 A. When he was there? When he wasnt?

21 Q. Yeah, what did you try to do, what was your

22 preference? To clean while he was there, or to
23 clean while he wasnt there?
24 A. Ill -- well, sometimes hell be there and
25 Ill be cleaning.
26 Q. Uh-huh.
27 A. It didnt matter.
28 Q. Okay. Where was his bed, incidentally, at 499
1

1 that time? Where did he sleep?

2 A. As soon as you came into the bedroom, thats
3 his bed.
4 Q. So his bed was downstairs?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was there another bed upstairs?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Which bed did he sleep in?
9 A. Downstairs.
10 Q. And you would make --
11 A. Most of the --
12 Q. And you would make that bed; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. All right. Did he ever have visitors over
15 at his home?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. Visitors who stayed?
18 A. Excuse me?
19 Q. Visitors who stayed for periods of time?
20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you know a person by the name of Wade

22 Robeson?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Who was Wade Robeson?
25 A. He was a young kid, a young little boy.
26 Q. How old was Wade Robeson when you first met
27 him?
28 A. Probably eight. Seven or eight. 4992

1 Q. Do you know where Mr. Robeson -- where Mr.

2 Robeson - an eight-year-old - where Wade Robeson
3 came from?
4 A. Yes. From a different country. I mean,
5 from another country. Switzer --
6 Q. Do you know which country?
7 A. No, I dont remember.
8 Q. But you recall that it was from a different
9 country?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Was it an English-speaking country or a
12 country with a different language?
13 A. Different language.
14 Q. Did you ever talk to Wade Robeson?
15 A. A little bit.
16 Q. Was he there with family?
17 A. With his mother.
18 Q. Do you remember --
19 A. I think he has a little sister. I dont
20 remember.

21 Q. All right. Did Wade Robeson --

22 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. The prosecutor
23 didnt let the witness finish.
24 MR. ZONEN: Im sorry, I thought she had.
25 Q. Please go ahead, if you hadnt finished that
26 answer.
27 A. Excuse me?
28 Q. I think you said he has a little sister? 4993

1 A. Yeah. I dont remember, tell you the truth.

2 Q. Do you have a recollection of a sister?
3 A. I -- you know, I dont remember, tell you
4 the truth.
5 Q. Do you remember his mother?
6 A. His mother, yeah.
7 Q. Where did she stay when they were there?
8 A. In the guesthouse outside. They call them
9 the guest quarters.
10 Q. The guest quarters?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. Do you remember if Wade Robesons father was
13 there?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Where did Wade Robeson stay?
16 A. In Mr. Jacksons room.
17 Q. All right. In the bedroom?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. For what period of time was Wade Robeson
20 visiting Mr. Jackson?

21 A. Weeks.
22 Q. Weeks?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. When he would come, would he stay -- whats
25 the longest that he would stay at any one time?
26 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; foundation.
27 THE COURT: Sustained.
28 MR. ZONEN: Well, let me ask a couple 4994

1 preliminary questions.
2 Q. Youve already told us that you cleaned Mr.
3 Jacksons room.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were you the only one who cleaned Mr.
6 Jacksons room?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you go into Mr. Jacksons room daily,
9 every single day, when you were working?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Were you working at that period of time, as
12 you said, at least five and sometimes six days a
13 week?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Would you be the first one in his room in
16 the morning?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Would you have to fix his bed?
19 A. There were times when nobody knew that he
20 was going to be there, and they call me at home,

21 telling me, Hes here, and so you have to come

and
22 clean up.
23 Q. Did you see Wade Robeson there?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. All right. Did you see him there for days
26 at a time?
27 A. Yeah. Yes.
28 Q. Did you see where he was staying? 4995

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. Where was he staying?
3 A. In Mr. Jacksons room.
4 Q. All right. Did you see Wade Robesons
5 belongings?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. What kind of belongings did he have?
8 A. He had clothes, little suitcase, kids
9 suitcase, and his clothes in there.
10 Q. All right. Would you wash Michael Jacksons
11 clothing as part of your job?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Did you wash Wade Robesons clothing?
14 A. As well, yes.
15 Q. Always?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Whenever he was there?
18 A. Yes. I find them on the floor, so Ill --
19 Ill wash them.
20 Q. And his clothing was found on the floor in

21 where?
22 A. Different places.
23 Q. Whose room?
24 A. Mr. Jacksons room.
25 Q. All right. Would you find Mr. Jacksons
26 clothing there as well?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And that was your responsibility, your job, 4
996

1 to simply gather up the clothing and launder it?

2 A. Yeah. Yes.
3 Q. And then return it to his room?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Leading; move to
6 strike.
7 THE COURT: Its leading; sustained.
8 Stricken.
9 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Was there a place that --
10 where you kept Wade Robesons clothing after you
11 laundered it?
12 A. No, I put them together with his clothes and
13 in his case, his little suitcase.
14 Q. Now, tell us how often Wade Robeson came to
15 visit.
16 I have two questions and well do one at a
17 time. Let me tell you both of them. How often he
18 came, and how often -- how long he stayed each t
ime
19 he came. So lets start with the first one.

20 How often did he come, Wade Robeson?

21 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; foundation.
22 THE COURT: Overruled.
23 You may answer.
24 THE WITNESS: How often did he come?
25 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: How often did he come to
26 Neverland to visit Mr. Jackson?
27 A. Uh --
28 MR. MESEREAU: Vague as to time; objection. 4997

1 THE COURT: Sustained.

2 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Well, tell me when he first
3 came. You said he was eight years old. Do you
4 remember what year that was?
5 Excuse me.
6 A. Probably --
7 Q. Im sorry.
8 A. 99.
9 Q. 99 or 89?
10 A. 89, I mean.
11 Q. You quit working there when?
12 A. In 90 -- 91, I think. 91.
13 Q. 91. All right. So you think it might have
14 been in 1989 that Mr. Robeson visited?
15 A. 89.
16 Q. Young Wade Robeson?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. And were you the one who was working for
19 Mr. Jackson exclusively in his bedroom during th
at
20 time?

21 A. Yes. One occasion I left and somebody else

22 got in charge. The manager --
23 Q. Uh-huh.
24 A. -- got in charge of cleaning, you know, when
25 I left for vacation.
26 Q. And for how long was that?
27 A. Probably about two weeks.
28 Q. All right. But for the rest of the time, 4998

1 you were there cleaning?

2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And during that period of time when Wade
4 Robeson was there, were you able to see him?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were you able to do his laundry?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were you able to see him daily? Did you
9 ever actually see him in Mr. Jacksons bedroom?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Daily?
12 A. (Nods head up and down.)
13 Q. Daily?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Now, you said that he first came, you
16 think, in 1999?
17 A. Uh-huh yes.
18 Q. How many separate times? When was the last
19 time he came? In other words, how long after the
20 first visit was the final visit, to your knowled

ge?
21 A. I dont remember. It was, I guess, about a
22 year, less than a year before I left.
23 Q. So were the visits, then, over a period of
24 time of one year?
25 A. Yeah.
26 Q. Do you know how many separate times he came
27 during that one-year period to visit?
28 A. Hell be there for weeks, and then hell 4999

1 leave and come back after two weeks.

2 Q. And stay for how long?
3 A. For another week.
4 Q. Did he generally stay for at least a week?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Mr. -- Wade Robeson was there for quite some
7 time?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. All right. And during that time, are you
10 aware of him staying anyplace other than Michael
11 Jacksons bedroom?
12 A. No. Hell stay there as far as I know.
13 Q. Now, your obligation, of course, was not
14 just to clean up, but to do the linens?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. The sheets off the beds; is that right?
17 A. Change.
18 Q. You said that there were two beds --
19 A. Uh-huh, yeah.
20 Q. -- at least? Were there more than two beds

21 in his suite or just two?

22 A. No, just two.
23 Q. Did you make the beds every single day?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. During the time that Wade Robeson was there,
26 how many beds did you make? One or more than one
?
27 A. Just that one.
28 Q. The one that was Mr. Jacksons bed? 5000

1 A. Yeah. The one upstairs was rarely used.

2 Q. All of the visits when Wade Robeson came,
3 was his mother there for all of the visits?
4 A. Sometimes.
5 Q. Were there some times that she was not
6 there?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. But Wade Robeson came by himself?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Do you know how?
11 A. Mr. Jackson will bring him.
12 Q. He would bring him?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. And during that entire year of visits, did
15 you ever see Wade Robesons father?
16 A. You know, that I dont remember. I --
17 Q. You dont have a picture of him in your
18 mind?
19 A. No.
20 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Leading; move to

21 strike.
22 THE COURT: Sustained. Its stricken.
23 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Do you have a picture of him
24 in your mind?
25 A. Of the little boy?
26 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; asked and
27 answered.
28 THE COURT: The objection is overruled. But 5001

1 shes asked for clarification.

2 MR. ZONEN: Let me change the question, if I
3 can. Ill withdraw the question.
4 THE COURT: All right.
5 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Can you describe Wade
6 Robesons father to us?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And I think that you said that there might
9 have been a sister. Do you recall a sister?
10 A. I dont remember. So many kids there, I
11 dont remember.
12 Q. Okay. Was there ever an occasion, to your
13 recollection, where any other child stayed with
Mr.
14 Jackson in his room while Wade Robeson was there
?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Only Wade Robeson?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. All right. Was there ever an occasion where
19 you walked into his room and you saw some kind o
f a

20 separate sleeping arrangement, what you believe

to
21 be a separate sleeping arrangement for Wade Robe
son?
22 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Vague; leading;
23 foundation.
24 THE COURT: Ill sustain vague.
25 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did you ever see a sleeping
26 bag on the floor?
27 A. No.
28 Q. Did you ever see anything that causes you to
5002

1 believe that Wade Robeson was sleeping someplace

2 other than in Michael Jacksons bed?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Was there an occasion that you went into
5 Michael Jacksons room and came upon Michael Jack
son
6 and Wade Robeson?
7 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
8 THE COURT: Overruled.
9 You may answer.
10 THE WITNESS: Did I what?
11 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Come into Michael Jacksons
12 room and discover that Michael Jackson was there
13 with Wade Robeson.
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Okay. Was there an occasion when you went
16 in and they were in the shower?
17 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
18 THE COURT: Sustained.
19 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did you ever come in and find

20 them in a situation that made you uncomfortable?

21 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
22 THE COURT: Overruled.
23 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Do you understand what Im
24 asking?
25 A. That I was what?
26 Q. Where you were uncomfortable. You found
27 them and you were uncomfortable.
28 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading. 5003

1 THE COURT: Overruled.

2 You may answer.
3 THE WITNESS: Well, I came one time and -- in
4 the bedroom.
5 MR. ZONEN: Uh-huh.
6 THE WITNESS: And first I thought they were
7 playing.
8 MR. MESEREAU: Objection.
9 THE WITNESS: And --
10 MR. MESEREAU: Nonresponsive.
11 THE COURT: Sustained.
12 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: All right. The question was
13 yes or no.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Tell us what you heard when you first
16 walked into the room.
17 A. Laughing.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. And playing; like playing around.
20 Q. Okay. What did you do?

21 A. I came in, and I -- first I thought that

22 they were playing in the bathtub, Jacuzzi, and I
23 didnt see them. And then I thought they were
24 outside, playing outside the house; I mean, in h
is
25 garden. And I walked and they were in the shower
.
26 Q. You have to explain to us a little bit the
27 layout here.
28 A. Uh-huh. 5004

1 Q. Is there a Jacuzzi inside his house, inside

2 his bedroom?
3 A. Inside his bedroom, yeah.
4 Q. So explain that for us. Describe to us what
5 you get to first. The shower? The Jacuzzi?
6 Explain how its laid out.
7 A. First, you get to the bed. And then you get
8 in the bathroom, they call it the ladies bathroo
m,
9 and theres a big Jacuzzi there.
10 Q. Okay. Was there a door that goes to that
11 bathroom?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Was the door open or was the door closed?
14 A. No, the door is open. It was open.
15 Q. And what did -- did you look into that door?
16 A. Which door?
17 Q. The door that goes to the bathroom.
18 A. Well, I have to go through there.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. Yeah.

21 Q. What do you mean, you have to go through

22 there?
23 A. To get to the bathroom.
24 Q. And did you do that?
25 A. Yeah.
26 Q. What did you see?
27 A. And then I was going to walk outside to the
28 garden, but then -- 5005

1 Q. Okay.
2 A. -- on my way going, I peek, and it was in
3 the shower.
4 Q. And what did you see?
5 A. And I hear this playing around. Thats
6 where he was taking a shower, I guess.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. With little Wade.
9 Q. What did you see? Tell me what you saw.
10 A. I -- what I saw, I -- just some clothes on
11 the floor.
12 Q. You saw clothes on the floor in the bathroom
13 or in the bedroom?
14 A. No, in the shower.
15 Q. In --
16 A. By the shower.
17 Q. By the shower. What clothing did you see on
18 the floor?
19 A. Underwear.
20 Q. Underwear?

21 A. (Nods head up and down.)

22 Q. More than one pair?
23 A. Yeah.
24 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
25 THE COURT: Overruled. Next question.
26 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: How many pair did you see?
27 A. Two.
28 Q. Two pair of underwear? 5006

1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Did you recognize the underwear?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. And how did you happen to recognize the
5 underwear?
6 A. The -- Mr. Jacksons, I knew they were
7 white. And the little boy, they were colored.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. They were little underwear.
10 Q. Can you describe the little boys underwear?
11 A. They were little green underwear.
12 Q. Green underwear?
13 A. Uh-huh. Had like a neon color.
14 Q. Neon green?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. Just in case he lost them?
17 You did his underwear previously, didnt
18 you? You had washed his underwear previously?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. Did you know Wade Robesons underwear?

21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. They have little, you know, characters, like
24 Spiderman and things like that.
25 Q. Childs?
26 A. Childs.
27 Q. A small childs underwear?
28 A. Yeah. 5007

1 Q. And Mr. Jacksons underwear you washed

2 regularly as well?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. And his underwear was what type?
5 A. I dont know. I think they call them
6 briefs.
7 Q. And what color?
8 A. White.
9 Q. Okay. You say you found two pair. Where
10 were they?
11 A. On the floor.
12 Q. Okay. And on the floor in the bathroom?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Now, how far is the underwear from either
15 the Jacuzzi or the shower?
16 A. Well, theyre right by -- they were right by
17 the door, by the shower.
18 Q. Okay. Was water running?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Excuse me. And the water was running in

21 the -- in the shower?

22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you -- did you know that, that the water
24 was running, when you first came into his bedroo
m
25 suite?
26 A. Well, I heard the radio, and then eventually
27 I hear the water going.
28 Q. Im sorry, I heard the first part. 5008

1 A. The radio. I heard the radio.

2 Q. You heard the radio?
3 A. Yeah, playing. And then eventually I hear
4 the water going.
5 Q. And then you heard the water?
6 A. Yeah, because I hear two people, you know,
7 playing.
8 Q. And you say you heard two people playing.
9 What were the sounds that you heard?
10 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; asked and
11 answered.
12 THE COURT: Sustained.
13 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did you hear two voices?
14 A. Yeah.
15 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; asked and
16 answered.
17 THE COURT: Leading; sustained.
18 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: For what period of time did
19 you hear sounds?
20 A. Maybe about a minute.

21 Q. Did you recognize the voices that you heard?

22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Whose voices were they?
24 A. Mr. Jackson.
25 Q. Did you recognize the second voice?
26 A. Yeah.
27 Q. Whose voice was that?
28 A. The little kid, the -- 5009

1 Q. Wade?
2 A. Wades, little boy.
3 Q. When you finally reached a spot where you
4 could see in, was your vision obscured by anythin
g?
5 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Leading; assumes
6 facts not in evidence.
7 MR. ZONEN: Withdraw the evidence --
8 withdraw the question.
9 Q. In that bathroom, is there a shower curtain?
10 A. No.
11 Q. What is there in that bathroom?
12 A. A glass door.
13 Q. A glass door. Is it a glass door that is
14 fogged or is it a glass door that is clear?
15 A. Its clear, but at that time it was smoky.
16 Q. Okay. Smoky?
17 A. Cloudy.
18 Q. Cloudy? From the shower?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. All right. When theres no shower going,

21 can you see through the glass?

22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. On this occasion when the shower was going,
24 could you see through the glass?
25 A. No.
26 Q. Could you see any figure at all? What could
27 you see?
28 MR. MESEREAU: Asked and answered. 5010

1 THE WITNESS: I saw a figure.

2 MR. ZONEN: Hold on.
3 THE COURT: Just a minute.
4 The objection is overruled. I saw a
5 figure is the answer. Go ahead.
6 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did you see more than one
7 figure?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. All right. Did you recognize either of the
10 figures that you saw?
11 A. Mr. Jackson.
12 Q. All right.
13 A. And the little kid.
14 Q. Was one figure larger than the other?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. Was the second figure the size of Wade
17 Robeson?
18 A. Yeah. Yes.
19 Q. What did you do at that point?
20 A. That he was going to get mad, or --

21 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; nonresponsive.

22 THE COURT: Sustained.
23 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike.
24 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: What did you do at the time
25 that you saw Mr. Jackson and Wade Robeson in the
26 shower? What did you do then?
27 A. I was going to talk to them, but then I
28 thought, No, I better not, so I just went back
. 5011

1 Q. Did you leave the room?

2 A. I -- yeah, I left the room.
3 Q. Did you tell Mr. Jackson that you had been
4 in the room?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you back into the room at a later time?
7 A. Yeah, to clean the room.
8 Q. Miss Francia, was there ever an occasion
9 where you saw your son Jason with Mr. Jackson and
10 you were concerned?
11 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
12 THE COURT: Overruled.
13 You may answer.
14 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Go ahead.
15 A. I was concerned for my son, yes.
16 Q. Can you tell us when that happened?
17 A. The first time, it was -- I think it was in
18 Encino.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. That I remember that I walked in, because I

21 had the key to that room, too.

22 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;
23 move to strike.
24 THE WITNESS: And I walked in --
25 THE COURT: Wait. Just a moment, please.
26 All right. No question was pending, so Ill
27 strike her answer.
28 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: All right. It was in Encino. 50
12

1 Do you remember when that was?

2 A. Do you mean the date?
3 Q. Or the year.
4 A. Probably 86. I dont remember.
5 Q. Okay. How old was Jason?
6 A. Probably about seven or eight, probably.
7 Seven.
8 Q. Seven. And what did you see that concerned
9 you?
10 A. Well, I saw little things before that with
11 other kids, and --
12 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; nonresponsive.
13 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Just tell us what you saw --
14 THE COURT: Sustained.
15 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Just tell us what you saw
16 with Jason.
17 A. Well, he was sitting on his lap.
18 Q. Okay. And what concerned you?
19 A. And I walked in, and he was sitting on his
20 lap, and Mr. Jackson was just reclining, reclini
ng

21 to the back.
22 Q. Reclining?
23 A. Reclining to the back.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. And having my son in his lap.
26 Q. And where was Jason positioned on his lap?
27 A. His legs.
28 Q. Okay. And what did you do? 5013

1 A. I just told my son to get out. And he

2 was -- I remember he say, No, Im fine.
3 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;
4 move to strike.
5 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: You told your son to get out?
6 THE COURT: Just a moment.
7 Stricken.
8 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: You told your son to get out?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Did he do so?
11 A. No.
12 Q. What did you do then?
13 A. I think I push him, and -- oh, he was --
14 some kind of -- reading a book or coloring. And
Mr.
15 Jackson say, I want him to read, or Im readi
ng a
16 story, something like that.
17 Q. Did you take your son off of his lap?
18 A. Yeah. Yes.
19 Q. Was there another occasion that you were

20 concerned?
21 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
22 THE COURT: Overruled.
23 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: You can answer.
24 A. Yeah, I remember one time, too, at the
25 Encino house that I want my son to stay downstai
rs,
26 because he -- he will come and -- Mr. Jackson wi
ll
27 come and, you know, probably wanted to be by
28 himself, and I said, You stay here, and I -- 5
014

1 Q. You said that to who?

2 A. To my son, you know, to Stay here. Stay
3 here, because Michael is here, and, you know, h
e
4 probably want to be by himself.
5 And then he find out -- I guess Mr. Jackson
6 find out that my son was there, and so he took hi
m
7 upstairs.
8 And I got mad, because my -- I told my son
9 not to go with him, but I got concerned because m
y
10 son --
11 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;
12 move to strike.
13 THE COURT: Ill strike the last sentence.
14 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did you go look for your son?
15 A. No.
16 Q. When did you next see your son?
17 A. What do you mean?
18 Q. On that day, on that occasion.
19 A. Oh. Well, I -- I did my cleaning, or

20 whatever I was doing, and after, he came -- he c

ame
21 down.
22 Q. Okay. Let me ask you about the hideout. At
23 the hideout, you had mentioned that there wasnt
a
24 bed. What did Mr. Jackson sleep in?
25 A. He sleeps in a sleeping bag.
26 Q. All right. The whole time that he was at
27 the hideout?
28 A. Yeah. There was no bed. 5015

1 Q. Im sorry?
2 A. There was no bed there.
3 Q. Was there ever an occasion that you and your
4 son stayed the night at the hideout?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You always left at the end of the day?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. And did you have an apartment that was
9 someplace in Los Angeles at that time?
10 A. He?
11 Q. You.
12 A. Oh, yeah, I did.
13 Q. So during the time that you were going to
14 the hideout regularly --
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. -- you had an apartment.
17 And I think that you had testified that even
18 after you moved to Santa Maria, there were still
19 occasions that you went back to clean at the
20 hideout?

21 A. Many times, yeah.

22 Q. Do you know for approximately how long after
23 you moved to Santa Maria?
24 A. Probably a year.
25 Q. Okay. Now, what did he -- I asked you what
26 he slept on, and you said a sleeping bag. Descri
be
27 the sleeping bag for us. What kind of a sleeping
28 bag was it? 5016

1 A. A regular sleeping bag that you sleep on.

2 Q. Sleeping bag for one person? For two
3 people? How big?
4 A. A regular one.
5 Q. Just a regular sleeping bag?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. Was that sleeping bag always open, or was it
8 rolled up?
9 A. It was open.
10 Q. Always?
11 A. Well, when I made it, I would try to make it
12 like a bed, you know.
13 Q. Were there any blankets on the sleeping bag
14 or under the sleeping bag?
15 A. Yeah, there were blankets.
16 Q. Which? On the sleeping bag or --
17 A. On the sleeping bag, yes.
18 Q. Was the sleeping bag simply on the floor?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Was there carpet on the floor?

21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you ever see Jason on or in the sleeping
23 bag?
24 A. One time.
25 Q. Was Mr. Jackson there?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Were they on the sleeping bag or were they
28 in the sleeping bag? 5017

1 A. They were on the sleeping bag, yeah.

2 Q. On top of the sleeping bag?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Could you see their body -- bodies, both of
5 them?
6 A. Not Mr. Jacksons.
7 Q. Why not?
8 A. Because it was covered.
9 Q. Okay. So the sleeping bag covered Mr.
10 Jackson?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. How about Jason? Where was Jason?
13 A. He was in the sleeping bag, too.
14 Q. He was in the sleeping bag.
15 How were they positioned relative to each
16 other? Do you know what I mean? Were they facing
17 each other? Were they facing away from each othe
r?
18 Do you recall?
19 A. I remember this time he was this -- on this

20 side, and my son was on this side. And I got the

re
21 about three or four times, and one time he was -
- my
22 son was --
23 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; nonresponsive.
24 THE COURT: Its kind of hard to tell. Maybe
25 you could start with another question.
26 MR. ZONEN: Yes, I can.
27 Q. I asked you initially how they were
28 positioned. In other words, were they facing eac
h 5018

1 other? Were they facing away from each other? Do

2 you recall? When you saw them the first time.
3 A. The first time, my son was just laying
4 there.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. But on one time, because I was cooking for
7 Mr. Jackson, I was doing some lunch, or snacks, o
r
8 something --
9 Q. Im sorry?
10 A. I was cooking some snacks.
11 Q. Snacks. Okay.
12 A. Popcorn.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. I dont remember.
15 Q. Are we still talking about the same event,
16 the same day?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. So when --
19 A. Hmm?
20 Q. When you first saw your son in the sleeping

21 bag with Mr. Jackson, did you say anything to yo

ur
22 son at all when you first saw him in the sleepin
g
23 bag?
24 A. I told him to come up, outside, and eat,
25 because I wanted to feed him.
26 Q. Okay. And did he?
27 A. No.
28 Q. All right. What did you do? 5019

1 A. He say, I want to stay here.

2 Q. Okay. What did you do?
3 A. And -- well, I got mad. And I said, you
4 know, You got to get out to the kitchen, and he
5 didnt wanted to.
6 Q. All right. Were you speaking with him in
7 English or in Spanish at that time; do you recall
?
8 A. No, I dont remember.
9 Q. Do you know what language -- what language
10 do you speak with your son now?
11 A. Spanish.
12 Q. You speak Spanish?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Youve always spoke Spanish with him?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. His wife does or does not speak Spanish?
17 A. No.
18 Q. In her presence, what do you speak?
19 A. English.

20 Q. Okay. But he grew up speaking Spanish?

21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And hes very fluent in Spanish?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When you asked him to come out to go eat, in
25 what language was that?
26 A. I think I said it in Spanish. But then I
27 want Mr. Jackson to understand what I was tellin
g
28 him to do, and so I guess I said it in Spanish a
nd 5020

1 English. I dont remember.

2 Q. So youre not certain at this point?
3 A. No.
4 Q. All right. Did he get out of the sleeping
5 bag?
6 A. No.
7 Q. What did you then do? Did you leave the
8 room or --
9 A. I left the room and I proceed to do my stuff
10 and --
11 Q. Okay. And what happened then?
12 A. Then I went back and -- and then he was
13 eating, but he was -- oh, I took something to ea
t to
14 him.
15 Q. Okay. When you came back out, was he still
16 in the sleeping bag with Mr. Jackson?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. What were they doing in the sleeping bag? I
19 dont mean in the sleeping bag, but what were th
ey

20 doing in the room?

21 A. They were watching T.V.
22 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; foundation.
23 THE COURT: A time frame?
24 MR. MESEREAU: Yes.
25 THE COURT: Sustained.
26 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: At the time that you first
27 came into that room, was the television on?
28 A. On, yes. 5021

1 Q. Do you remember approximately what time of

2 the day it was?
3 A. Probably was about 2:00, 1:00 or 2:00 in the
4 afternoon.
5 Q. Was the room light or was the room dark?
6 A. It was dark. It gets really dark.
7 Q. But this was about 1:00 or 2:00 in the
8 afternoon?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Were there shades on the windows?
11 A. Draperies, curtains.
12 Q. Draperies. And were they drawn? Were they
13 closed?
14 A. Closed.
15 Q. So the light was not in?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you remember what they were watching on
18 television?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you know what Jason used to like to watch

21 at that time?
22 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; relevance.
23 THE WITNESS: At that time --
24 MR. ZONEN: Ill withdraw the question.
25 THE COURT: All right.
26 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: How old was Jason, to your
27 recollection, at that time, as best you can reca
ll?
28 A. Probably like eight. Probably eight. That 502
2

1 was --
2 Q. Im sorry, go ahead.
3 A. -- before we move here to Santa -- to --
4 before he moved here to Neverland.
5 Q. It was before he moved to Neverland?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. And Jason was born on, if Im not mistaken,
8 May 30, 1980?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is that his birth date?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When you moved to Neverland in 1988, he
13 would have been about eight years old?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. And you believe this was before?
16 A. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
17 Q. Okay. Do you know if Mr. Jackson ever gave
18 Jason money?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Do you know on how many occasions?

21 A. That I remember, because it was -- to me, it

22 was a lot of money for a little kid. At the hide
out
23 he gave him some money.
24 Q. Do you know how much money he gave him?
25 A. From what I remember, it was two
26 hundred-dollar bills.
27 Q. Two 100-dollar bills?
28 A. Two 100-dollar bills, yes. 5023

1 Q. When did you first see that money?

2 A. After -- what happened was that I left the
3 key at his apartment. And we were walking to get
--
4 take the bus home, back home. My car key, I left
it
5 there. And we were going to walk to -- to the bus
6 stop.
7 Q. Okay. Were you taking the bus back and
8 forth?
9 A. No, I was driving. But I left the key, my
10 car key there, and I didnt want to go back and
11 knock at the door, because --
12 Q. You didnt have your key?
13 A. Yeah, Mr. Jackson wouldnt open the door.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. So I remember we were walking to the bus
16 stop, and he say -- my son told me he has money
--
17 MR. MESEREAU: Objection.
18 THE WITNESS: -- in his pocket.

19 MR. MESEREAU: Nonresponsive.

20 THE COURT: Just a moment.
21 True, theres no question pending. Its
22 nonresponsive.
23 MR. ZONEN: All right.
24 Q. Where were you when you first saw the money?
25 A. At the bus stop.
26 Q. Okay. Did he give you the money, your son?
27 A. No.
28 Q. All right. How did you see the money? 5024

1 A. Well, he say he had lots of money and that

2 it was a secret.
3 Q. Okay. What did you say?
4 A. And I say, What do you mean, a secret? How
5 much money? But I thought it was maybe two
6 dollars.
7 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
8 MR. ZONEN: Spontaneous declaration, Your
9 Honor.
10 THE COURT: Im going to allow the answer to
11 the question of, What did you say? which I thi
nk
12 is the objection you were making.
13 MR. MESEREAU: Has to do with third-party
14 statements, Your Honor.
15 MR. ZONEN: Im sorry.
16 THE COURT: Im going to ask you to rephrase
17 the question. The question you last asked where
the
18 objection came was, And what did you say? And
she
19 did say what she said. But then she was going to

20 say something else.

21 MR. ZONEN: Yes. Thank you.
22 Q. What did your son say to you in response to
23 your statement?
24 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
25 MR. ZONEN: Thats a spontaneous
26 declaration.
27 THE COURT: Okay.
28 MR. ZONEN: Thats what I originally meant. 5025

1 THE COURT: I will allow it on that basis.

2 MR. ZONEN: Thank you, Your Honor.
3 Q. What did your son say?
4 A. That he has the money; that it was a secret;
5 he wasnt going to tell me.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. But at this point I thought it was maybe two
8 dollars or a dollar.
9 Q. Did you ask to see it?
10 A. And I say, I want to see it. And he say,
11 No, because Michael told me that its for me an
d
12 not to tell you. But like I say, I thought it w
as
13 two dollars. I say, How much is it?
14 And I pull it out of his pocket.
15 Q. It was in his pocket?
16 A. It was in his pocket. He said he put --
17 Q. Do you remember what he was wearing?
18 A. Pants.
19 Q. You believe it was pants?

20 A. Yeah. He says, He put it in my pocket.

21 Dont take it out.
22 So I pull it out, and I said, $200?
23 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; nonresponsive.
24 THE COURT: Sustained.
25 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did you reach into his
26 pocket?
27 A. Yeah.
28 Q. Did you retrieve it? 5026

1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. What was it?
3 A. It was two 100-dollar bills.
4 Q. Were there ever other occasions that you
5 were aware of where Mr. Jackson gave your son mon
ey?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Was that the only occasion that you recall?
8 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; asked and
9 answered.
10 THE COURT: Sustained.
11 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did you ever see your son
12 with money on other occasions?
13 A. Ill give him allowances. And, you know,
14 hell keep it -- you know, a dollar or two.
15 Q. Do you know who Macaulay Culkin is?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who is Macaulay Culkin?
18 A. The little kid from the movies.
19 Q. Yes. Did you ever see Macaulay Culkin --
20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- personally?
22 Where did you see him?
23 A. At the Neverland. At the ranch.
24 Q. Did he visit Neverland?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. How often did he visit Neverland?
27 A. I dont remember. But it was a few times
28 when I was there. 5027

1 Q. More than once?

2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Over what period of time, from the first
4 time to the last time?
5 A. Probably six months.
6 Q. Were you working that entire time?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were you working in the same job youve
9 already described for us, as Mr. Jacksons person
al
10 maid?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were you cleaning his room?
13 A. Uh-huh. Yes.
14 Q. And doing his laundry?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When Mr. Culkin came -- well, it was
17 Macaulay Culkin. How old was he when you first s
aw
18 him, approximately?
19 A. I think about eight or nine. Probably

20 eight.
21 Q. Was this before or after Wade Robeson was
22 visiting?
23 A. After.
24 Q. Did they ever visit at the same time?
25 A. No. Not that I can remember.
26 Q. Did Wade Robeson continue to visit during
27 the time that Macaulay Culkin was coming?
28 A. I dont remember. 5028

1 Q. Do you know where Macaulay Culkin stayed

2 when he came to Neverland?
3 A. With Mr. Jackson.
4 Q. Did Macaulay Culkin come with any other
5 family members that you recall?
6 A. Yeah, I remember him with his father and
7 mother.
8 Q. Father and mother?
9 A. And the other kids.
10 Q. Other --
11 A. Brothers and sisters.
12 Q. Other siblings?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you know how many siblings he had,
15 whether they were boys or girls?
16 A. No, I dont remember.
17 Q. Do you know if it was more than one other
18 sibling?
19 A. Yeah. More than one.
20 Q. Did he have at least one brother and one

21 sister at least?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you know the total number of brothers and
24 sisters?
25 A. No. No. Probably five. I dont remember.
26 Q. I asked you where Macaulay Culkin stayed,
27 and you said with Mr. Jackson. How do you know
28 that? 5029

1 A. Because Ill go to his bedroom and clean up

2 after.
3 Q. Did you ever see Macaulay Culkin in Mr.
4 Jacksons bedroom?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were his possessions there in the bedroom?
7 A. Yeah. I dont remember.
8 Q. That you dont recall?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you recall if you ever washed his
11 clothing as you did Wade Robesons?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Would you have washed his clothing if his
14 clothing was someplace other than his bedroom?
15 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; calls for
16 speculation.
17 THE COURT: Sustained.
18 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Was it your responsibility to
19 wash clothing from rooms other than Mr. Jackson
s
20 bedroom?

21 A. No.
22 Q. If guests did not stay with Mr. Jackson,
23 where would they have stayed?
24 A. In the guest rooms. They call them the
25 outside guest rooms. You know, theyre like four
--
26 four guest rooms outside.
27 MR. ZONEN: Could I have those photographs,
28 please? Oh. Thank you. 5030

1 Im sorry, did you say something?

2 MR. MESEREAU: Im going to object as
3 cumulative.
4 MR. ZONEN: Oh, okay. All right.
5 Q. And I think that you said it was for a
6 number of months that Macaulay Culkin stayed?
7 A. Yeah. Weeks.
8 Q. I dont mean continuously. But what do you
9 think was the longest period that you ever saw hi
m
10 there during that few-month period of time?
11 A. About a week.
12 Q. Okay. Do you know if he always came with
13 his family?
14 A. Not always.
15 Q. How else did he come?
16 A. How often?
17 Q. How else, if he was not with his family?
18 Was he with other people?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did he come by himself?

21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you have a recollection of how many times
23 Macaulay Culkin came to visit Neverland by himse
lf?
24 A. Maybe I remember about two times.
25 Q. All right. How old was Jason during the
26 time that Macaulay Culkin was there?
27 A. At that time he was probably already ten.
28 Q. Jason was older than Macaulay Culkin? 5031

1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. About how much older?
3 A. Probably a year or two. I dont know.
4 Q. During the time that Macaulay Culkin stayed
5 in Mr. Jacksons bedroom, do you know if other
6 members of his family also stayed in the bedroom
7 with them?
8 A. Yeah, I think they did.
9 Q. On every occasion?
10 A. Not all the time.
11 Q. Are you aware --
12 A. When --
13 Q. Im sorry, go ahead.
14 A. When he was by himself, he was there by
15 himself with Mr. Jackson.
16 Q. Do you know of any occasions when Macaulay
17 Culkin came to visit when he did not stay in Mr.
18 Jacksons room?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And on those occasions when Macaulay Culkin

21 stayed in Mr. Jacksons room, do you know if the

re
22 was ever a separate sleeping arrangement, in oth
er
23 words, a separate bed or a separate sleeping bag
24 that you would have to clean up?
25 A. No.
26 Q. Excuse me, Im sorry.
27 Why did you leave Neverland, your employment
28 at Neverland? 5032

1 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; relevance.

2 THE COURT: Sustained.
3 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did you leave your employment
4 at Neverland?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Did you leave of your own volition?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you remember when it was you left
9 Neverland?
10 A. May, I think.
11 Q. Of what year?
12 A. 91. 90 or 91. 91, I think.
13 Q. May of 91?
14 A. 91.
15 Q. All right. So you would have been employed
16 by Mr. Jackson for a period of about five years?
17 A. Five years, yeah.
18 Q. Now, May of 91 your son would be turning
19 11; is that right?
20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know if you left before his 11th

22 birthday?
23 A. Uh-huh. About.
24 Q. Did your son have any more association with
25 Michael Jackson after you?
26 A. After?
27 Q. Yes, after you left.
28 A. No. 5033

1 Q. Did you ever go back to Neverland after you

2 left?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you ever visit with Mr. Jackson after
5 you left?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Were you contacted by law enforcement at
8 some time after you left Neverland, your employme
nt
9 at Neverland, for an interview?
10 A. Yeah. 1994 or 93. I dont remember.
11 Q. 93 or 94? So it was already some time
12 after you left Neverland; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. At least a year, and probably two?
15 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
16 MR. ZONEN: Let me withdraw the question.
17 Q. How long after you left your employment at
18 Neverland was it that law enforcement contacted
you?
19 A. About two and a half years.

20 Q. Did you contact them or did they contact

21 you?
22 A. They came to me.
23 Q. At the time they contacted you, did you know
24 whether or not there was an investigation going
on
25 involving Mr. Jackson?
26 A. Yeah. Yes. I was -- kind of.
27 Q. Were you expecting to be contacted?
28 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Calls for 5034

1 speculation; relevance; foundation.

2 MR. ZONEN: Goes to her state of mind.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: All right. Did it come as a
5 surprise to you when you were contacted?
6 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Relevance;
7 foundation; leading.
8 THE COURT: And Im going to back up a minute
9 and change my ruling on the question, Were you
10 expecting to be contacted? She may answer that
11 yes or no. Ill overrule the last objection.
12 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did you understand that? You
13 may answer the question, Were you expecting to
be
14 contacted?
15 A. Yes and no.
16 Q. Did you ultimately give an interview with
17 the sheriffs office?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. At some point in time were you called to

20 give a deposition? Were you subpoenaed to give a

21 deposition?
22 A. I was subpoenaed, yeah.
23 Q. All right. Now, do you know who it was who
24 subpoenaed you to give a deposition?
25 A. Mr. Feldman.
26 Q. Was that Larry Feldman?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Do you know who Larry Feldman represented at
5035

1 that time?
2 A. Yeah. Another little boy.
3 Q. Im sorry?
4 A. Another little boy.
5 Q. Do you know that persons name?
6 A. The -- the little boy?
7 Q. Yes, that he represented.
8 A. At that time I didnt know. Now -- now I
9 hear --
10 Q. What do you know the name to be?
11 A. Chandler. Chandler. Something like that.
12 But I dont know. I dont know the first name.
13 Q. Did you know that child, Mr. Chandler?
14 A. No. No.
15 Q. Mr. You dont know how old he was? You
16 dont know how old he was?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you know his first name?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Was this a child you were ever introduced to

21 during the time that you were at Neverland?

22 A. No.
23 Q. And tell us what a deposition is. Having
24 gone through one, what is it?
25 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; foundation.
26 MR. ZONEN: Well, let me withdraw that.
27 Q. Did you, in fact, go through a deposition?
28 A. Did I went through -- 5036

1 Q. Did you have a deposition? Did they take

2 your deposition?
3 A. Yeah. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. And did you, in fact, give testimony
5 in that deposition?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, I asked you who it was who subpoenaed
8 you, and you said it was Larry Feldman.
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. Were there other lawyers in the room asking
11 you questions as well?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Who were the other lawyers? Do you remember
14 any of their names?
15 A. I remember Johnnie Cochran, and there were
16 about five or six.
17 Q. About five or six lawyers?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. All in the room at one time?
20 A. Yeah.

21 Q. And was Johnnie Cochran asking you

22 questions?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were other lawyers asking you questions as
25 well?
26 A. I dont remember. But I think there was one
27 Waysman or Wiseman.
28 Q. Weitzman? Perhaps Howard Weitzman? 5037

1 A. I dont remember his last name. I mean --

2 Q. Do you know on which side Mr. Weitzman was?
3 A. With Mr. Cochran.
4 Q. He was with Mr. Cochran?
5 A. They were the two together, yeah.
6 Q. Who did Mr. Cochran and Mr. Weitzman
7 represent?
8 A. Mr. Jackson.
9 Q. Okay. Was Mr. Jackson present during that
10 deposition?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Was he ever there during the deposition at
13 any time?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did that deposition go longer than one day?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. How many days did it go?
18 A. Two days.
19 Q. Do you know how many hours each day you were
20 deposed?

21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you know if there were other lawyers
23 sitting with Mr. Feldman, Larry Feldman, in othe
r
24 words, on his side, other than Mr. Feldman?
25 A. No.
26 Q. Was Mr. Feldman the only one asking you
27 questions from that side?
28 A. Yes. 5038

1 Q. Have you ever reviewed the transcript of

2 that deposition?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Even back then?
5 A. Not that I remember.
6 Q. Do you remember what year it was, of that
7 deposition?
8 A. 94, I think. Or 95.
9 Q. Was it before or after you had your first
10 interview with law enforcement? Do you recall?
11 A. After.
12 Q. It was after? Do you remember approximately
13 how long after?
14 A. No, I dont remember the date or --
15 Q. Miss Francia, when you had this deposition
16 that went on for two days, and you say that ther
e
17 were lawyers, a number of them in the room, did
you
18 have a lawyer with you?
19 A. No.

20 Q. Had you retained a lawyer at that time?

21 A. Not at that time, no.
22 Q. Did you give answers to questions that were
23 put to you at that time.
24 A. Did I answer?
25 Q. Yes.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Did you -- did they explain to you that a
28 deposition is the same thing as testifying? 5039

1 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.

2 THE COURT: Just a moment.
3 MR. ZONEN: Ill withdraw the question.
4 THE COURT: Overrruled.
5 MR. ZONEN: I wont withdraw the question.
6 THE COURT: You may answer.
7 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did they explain to you that
8 a deposition was the same thing as testifying?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you have to raise your hand to take an
11 oath to tell the truth?
12 A. Oh, yeah.
13 Q. And you did do that?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. All right. Did they ask you questions
16 about -- questions similar to the questions Ive
17 asked you so far since youve been on the witnes
s
18 stand?
19 A. (Nods head up and down.)

20 Q. You have to answer out loud, if you would,

21 please.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All right. Did they ask you about Wade
24 Robeson?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Did they ask you if in fact you had seen
27 them in the shower together?
28 A. Yes. 5040

1 Q. Do you remember the answers that you gave to

2 those questions?
3 A. Kind of.
4 Q. Did you tell one of the attorneys that you
5 did not see Wade Robeson in the shower?
6 A. Yeah, I probably did.
7 Q. All right. Was that accurate?
8 A. Well, at that time I guess I was tired and
9 nervous, I guess.
10 Q. Did you tell them that you believed Wade
11 Robeson was in the shower?
12 A. Yes, I told them that.
13 Q. Did you tell them about the underwear?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Did you tell them about hearing the voices?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you tell them about the music?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you do an interview for Hard Copy?
20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What is Hard Copy?

22 A. A program.
23 Q. A program?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. A program on what? On television?
26 A. On television, yeah.
27 Q. Was that a program that you had seen before
28 that interview? 5041

1 A. No.
2 Q. Had you ever watched Hard Copy before?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you know what kind of -- did you know --
5 before you were on it, did you know what kind of
a
6 program it was?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Were you -- did somebody contact you from
9 Hard Copy?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. And do you remember who that was who
12 contacted you?
13 A. That -- the lady who interview me.
14 Q. Okay. Do you happen to remember her name?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. What was her name?
17 A. Diane Dimond.
18 Q. Diane Dimond. Did you discuss with Miss
19 Dimond what it was she wanted to talk with you
20 about?

21 A. Yeah, we kind of talk about it.

22 Q. Okay. Did you agree to go on television?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Was there some discussion with Miss Dimond
25 about whether or not you would be paid or
26 compensated for appearing on television?
27 A. Yeah. My friend and I went together.
28 Q. You went with a friend? 5042

1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Who was your friend?
3 A. One of -- one of the workers at Neverland.
4 Q. One of the workers at Neverland?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. What was her name?
7 A. Evangeline.
8 Q. Evangeline?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what did she do at Neverland?
11 A. She was a housekeeper and a cook.
12 Q. A housekeeper and a cook?
13 A. And a cook, yeah. And she helped the cook.
14 Q. Okay. And you were talking with Diane
15 Dimond with Evangeline?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. All right. Why is that? Why was Evangeline
18 there, or Vangie, was why she there?
19 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; foundation.
20 THE COURT: Im not sure what youre

21 looking for, foundation.

22 MR. MESEREAU: And speculation.
23 THE COURT: Okay.
24 MR. ZONEN: Ill withdraw that, then. I
25 understand that objection.
26 Q. Did you ask Evangeline to be there with you?
27 A. She was the one who contact, I believe,
28 Diane Dimond. 5043

1 Q. Did she -- shes the one who introduced you

2 to Diane Dimond?
3 A. Yeah, she was the one who told me, you know,
4 that she can get everything arranged.
5 Q. Okay. That she could arrange the interview?
6 A. The interview, yeah.
7 Q. And payment as well?
8 A. Yeah. She say, Ill help you.
9 Q. What did you understand the interview to be
10 about? What did they want to ask you about?
11 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Calls for
12 speculation.
13 MR. ZONEN: Withdraw the question.
14 Q. What was your belief that you were going to
15 be telling them?
16 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Leading.
17 THE WITNESS: About --
18 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.
19 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: What was your belief that you
20 would be telling them?

21 A. About me working there.

22 Q. Working where?
23 A. At Neverland.
24 Q. Okay. Did you think they would be asking
25 you questions about Michael Jackson?
26 A. No. I mean, that -- not the way they were
27 asking me.
28 Q. How much money did they represent from Hard 5
044

1 Copy -- how much money did they represent that th

ey
2 would give you for an interview?
3 A. How much money they gave me?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. $20,000.
6 Q. $20,000.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And what were you going to do for $20,000?
9 What were you going to say in this interview for
10 $20,000?
11 A. Well, I -- I thought that it was going to be
12 just talking about, you know, how it was working
for
13 him and how he was.
14 Q. Did that seem, to you, an unusually large
15 amount of money?
16 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
17 THE COURT: Sustained.
18 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: How much money were you
19 making a year at that time?

20 A. Less than $20,000.

21 Q. Less than $20,000?
22 A. Yeah, probably around 20.
23 THE COURT: All right. Well take our break.
24 (Recess taken.)
25 THE COURT: Go ahead.
26 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: When we left off, I was
27 asking some questions about the interview with H
ard
28 Copy. Did that interview finally take place? 504
5

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you actually watch it on television when
3 it was screened?
4 A. No.
5 THE BAILIFF: Can you turn your microphone
6 on?
7 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: I asked you about the
8 interview with Hard Copy. You finally did that
9 interview, did you not?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you watch it on television when it was
12 screened?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Have you ever watched it?
15 A. No. I watch a little bit, you know, when
16 I --
17 Q. Did you receive $20,000?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. Do you know if your friend Evangeline
20 got any money?

21 A. She didnt get any money from them, no. I

22 gave her some money.
23 Q. Was that interview -- was that interview
24 with Hard Copy before or after your interview wi
th
25 the sheriffs detectives?
26 A. After.
27 Q. Was it before or after your deposition with
28 Larry Feldman and Johnnie Cochran? 5046

1 A. Oh, before.
2 Q. It was before the deposition?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you remember being asked some questions
5 about the Hard Copy --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. -- interview during that deposition?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did Mr. Jackson ever have a nickname for
10 your son, for Jason, that he used?
11 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; foundation.
12 THE COURT: Sustained.
13 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did you ever hear Mr. Jackson
14 call your son by a name other than Jason, his re
al
15 name?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What name was that?
18 A. Rubba.
19 Q. Rubba, R-u-b-b-a, do you think?
20 A. I think.

21 Q. Is that what it sounds like?

22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Did you ever hear him call other kids
24 Rubba?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Did he call Wade Robeson Rubba?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Did he call Macaulay Culkin Rubba? 5047

1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Did you ever receive any gifts from Mr.
3 Jackson?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What kind of gifts did you receive from him?
6 A. I dont remember. They were a lot.
7 Q. Do you remember any of them?
8 A. He told me to get whatever I want, you know,
9 like promotional things that hell get from the
10 companies, or toys for my son.
11 Q. Do you mean if he had them in his
12 possession?
13 A. Yeah. He will buy little stuff for me, too.
14 Q. And he would give them to you?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. Did he ever give you any furniture?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. What kind of furniture?
19 A. I remember one time he -- he had a table in
20 the attic, and he say he doesnt want it there.
And

21 I asked him if I could take it, and he said, Ye

ah,
22 sure. Take it.
23 Q. The attic where?
24 A. The attic at Havenhurst.
25 Q. At Havenhurst?
26 A. Yeah.
27 Q. How long ago was that?
28 A. When I first started there, to work there. 50
48

1 Q. So 86?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. All right. Any other things that you can
4 remember that he gave you over the years?
5 A. Toys for my son.
6 Q. Toys for your son? Did he ever give you
7 money?
8 A. I dont remember.
9 Q. You dont remember if he gave you money, or
10 how much, or how often?
11 A. How often? No, I dont remember.
12 Q. All right. When you had the deposition with
13 Johnnie Cochran, did he ask you if you ever took
14 something from --
15 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; misstates the
16 evidence. There were other lawyers involved.
17 THE COURT: Overruled.
18 You may --
19 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: When you had the
20 deposition --

21 It was overruled, Your Honor?

22 THE COURT: It was overruled. Yes.
23 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: When you had the deposition
24 with Johnnie Cochran, did he or any other lawyer
25 representing Michael Jackson ask you if you took
26 something from Michael Jacksons room?
27 A. I dont remember.
28 Q. Did they ask you about a watch? 5049

1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Do you remember the watch?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you have a watch from Michael Jackson?
5 A. Did he have it?
6 Q. No. Did he ever give you a watch?
7 A. I got it from his room.
8 Q. What kind of a watch are we talking about?
9 A. It was a toy watch. You know, like I think
10 it was from one of his commercials or something.
11 Q. Did you --
12 A. That I had it, and he look at it, and he
13 say, Oh, thats nice. And I say, Yeah, I got
it
14 from your room. And he didnt -- I told one of
the
15 housekeepers that I -- Oh, look what I got from
his
16 room. But I guess I used to get stuff from his
17 room and --
18 Q. Are you talking about promotional things?

19 A. Yeah. Things like that.

20 Q. What is a promotional item? What do you
21 mean by that?
22 A. Like when he make a commercial. I think
23 this watch was from Captain Eo.
24 Q. Im sorry?
25 A. I think it was from one of his videos.
26 Q. Did he have his name on it?
27 A. Yeah.
28 Q. Did it have his picture on it? 5050

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What was that watch worth, do you think?
3 A. About $10, probably.
4 Q. At some time were you contacted by an
5 attorney or did you retain an attorney?
6 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; compound.
7 MR. ZONEN: Ill withdraw the question.
8 Q. Did you ever retain an attorney?
9 A. I dont understand.
10 Q. Oh. Did you ever hire a lawyer?
11 A. Oh. Did I personally went to a lawyer and
12 say -- no.
13 Q. Okay. Do you know Terry Cannon?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you know Kris Kallman?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know them to be lawyers?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. All right. Did either of those two lawyers
20 represent you?

21 A. Yes, at one time.

22 Q. Did they represent Jason?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. How did that happen? How did you come into
25 contact with these two lawyers?
26 A. Well, since I -- I was felt like --
27 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Relevance; 352.
28 THE COURT: Sustained. 5051

1 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did Jason get subpoenaed to

2 appear at a deposition?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How old was Jason at that time?
5 MR. ZONEN: We forgot the tags. Would you
6 mark the next two exhibits in order, please?
7 THE WITNESS: Probably about 12.
8 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did he actually get a
9 subpoena to appear at a deposition?
10 A. No, they told me that they were going to
11 subpoena him.
12 Q. Was that at the end of your deposition?
13 A. Yes, they told me they want him and myself
14 at another office. Not there, but another office
.
15 Mr. Cochran told me.
16 Q. All right. Were you concerned about Jason
17 giving a deposition?
18 A. At that time, yeah.
19 Q. Did you think he --
20 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Leading; move to

21 strike.
22 THE COURT: Overruled. Next question.
23 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: What were your concerns about
24 Jason giving a deposition?
25 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. 352; foundation.
26 THE COURT: Overruled.
27 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: You can answer the question.
28 What was your concern? 5052

1 A. That he -- being so young, that he was going

2 to be embarrassed and teased by other kids.
3 Q. All right. At some point in time, did you
4 talk with -- let me change that. At some point in
5 time, did you agree to file a lawsuit against
6 Michael Jackson?
7 A. Not at that time.
8 Q. Do you know if there was some kind of a
9 settlement with Michael Jacksons attorneys?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you receive -- and Im not asking you
12 how much, but did you receive compensation?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you receive payment?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did Jason also receive payment?
17 A. Yeah. Yes.
18 Q. When did he receive his payment?
19 A. I believe it was his 18th birthday.
20 Q. His 18th birthday?

21 I had asked you a question about the watch

22 from his room. Did Mr. Jackson ever talk to you
23 about being able to take things if you wanted to
?
24 A. He never told me that.
25 Q. Did he say anything like that?
26 A. Oh. No.
27 Q. There was no conversation about that?
28 A. He told me that sometimes people gave him 505
3

1 things, and that hed display it, and then -- you

2 know, and then he would like to get rid of it.
3 Q. Did you show him the watch?
4 A. Yeah. At one time I was wearing it, one of
5 his jackets, and he say -- and he told me that it
6 was his jacket. And I say, Yeah, I was cold. An
d
7 he say, Oh, thats okay.
8 MR. ZONEN: May I approach the witness, Your
9 Honor?
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: I have two photographs
12 previously shown to counsel. Id like to show yo
u
13 these two exhibits, if I can. Exhibit No. 781 an
d
14 Exhibit No. 782.
15 And do you see the numbers here? This is
16 781 and thats 782. Im going to put them both i
n
17 front of you.

18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. And then Ill go back.
20 781, would you pick that one up, please, and
21 tell us what that photograph is? Take a look at
it.
22 A. That was one of his school pictures.
23 Q. And who is he?
24 A. My son.
25 Q. Your son Jason. How old was Jason in that
26 photograph?
27 A. I would say about ten.
28 Q. About ten years old? Do you remember that 505
4

1 photograph being taken?

2 A. No.
3 Q. But you do recognize him?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is that an accurate photograph of Jason when
6 he was about ten years old?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. Look at the another one now,
9 please, I think 782. And what is that a photo of?
10 A. My son and I.
11 Q. All right. The two of you together?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All right. Is that photograph dated?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Whose handwriting is that?
16 A. Mine.
17 Q. Okay. And what is the date on that?
18 A. 1994.
19 Q. And your son was -- what was the month on
20 that?

21 A. The month is March.

22 Q. March? Its written in Spanish, is it not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. But its March 19 --
25 A. 94.
26 Q. 94. And how old was he at that time?
27 A. About 14.
28 Q. All right. He would turn 14 in May of 94? 50
55

1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. So he was 13 at the time; is that right?
3 A. 13.
4 Q. Is that photograph an accurate photograph of
5 your son at that time?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. ZONEN: Your Honor, I would move both of
8 those exhibits into evidence.
9 MR. MESEREAU: No objection.
10 THE COURT: Theyre admitted.
11 MR. ZONEN: Id ask to publish them at this
12 time.
13 THE COURT: All right.
14 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Well start with 781.
15 Could we dim the lights, if we could?
16 And could you take a look over your shoulder
17 and tell us, is that the photograph that you
18 identified?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And how old was he at that time again?

21 A. About ten.
22 Q. About ten. And then the second photograph,
23 782. And he was at that point 13?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. All right. Was that about the time that he
26 was being interviewed by law enforcement?
27 A. Yes, I think.
28 MR. ZONEN: Thank you. I have no further 5056

1 questions.
2 THE COURT: Cross-examine?
3 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, please, Your Honor.
4 If I may take a second, Your Honor, just to
5 set up.
6 THE COURT: Yes, you may.
7 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you.
8
9 CROSS-EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. MESEREAU:
11 Q. Maam, Ill say good morning, but I think
12 its afternoon. Okay?
13 My name is Tom Mesereau and I speak for Mr.
14 Jackson, okay? We met for the first time at the
15 break, right? Weve never spoken before that,
16 right?
17 A. No.
18 Q. All right. Now, if anything -- if anything
19 I ask you is unclear, please dont answer it, ok
ay?
20 Just say you dont understand. Okay?

21 A. Okay.
22 Q. And if you dont understand, Ill try and
23 rephrase it --
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. -- to make it more understandable, okay?
26 If youre not sure about what Im asking,
27 just dont answer. Just make sure its clear in
28 your mind what Im asking for, okay? 5057

1 You know Im on his side, okay?

2 A. Okay.
3 Q. Mr. Jackson, all right?
4 Now, you began working for Mr. Jackson in
5 1986; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And do you know approximately what month
8 that was?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. And you stopped working for Mr.
11 Jackson in approximately 1991, right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you never worked for him since you
14 stopped working in 1991, right?
15 A. No. I never went back.
16 Q. Okay. Now, you testified that in the
17 apartment owned by Mr. Jackson that you referred
to
18 as The Hideout, there was no furniture, right?
19 A. Uh-huh.

20 Q. Was there any bed in there at all?

21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay. And approximately when were you
23 cleaning that apartment as part of your work?
24 A. Do you mean how long would it take me to
25 clean or --
26 Q. No, no, let me rephrase it.
27 During what period of time do you remember
28 you were going to that apartment and cleaning it
? 5058

1 A. Probably a year. I dont remember.

2 Q. And would you go to clean that apartment
3 when Mr. Jackson was not there?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you remember Mr. Jackson going on what
6 was called a Bad tour; do you remember that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you remember Mr. Jackson produced an
9 album and a videotape called Bad?
10 A. Yeah. Yes.
11 Q. And do you remember he was traveling on that
12 tour from approximately September of 1987 to Jan
uary
13 of 1989?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And during that period of time he was often
16 out of the country, wasnt he?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And he told you about where he was going,
19 didnt he?
20 A. Yes.

21 Q. He told you he was going to Japan, right?

22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Australia, right?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. And a lot of cities in America, right?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. New York, right?
28 A. Yes. 5059

1 Q. Indianapolis? Went to Texas? Georgia?

2 MR. ZONEN: Ill object as beyond the scope
3 of her knowledge; lack of foundation.
4 THE WITNESS: I dont know.
5 MR. MESEREAU: I think shes answering she
6 did know, Your Honor.
7 THE WITNESS: He told me he was on tour,
8 but --
9 MR. ZONEN: Theres an objection.
10 THE WITNESS: You know --
11 THE COURT: The only one she said she didnt
12 know were the last two, so Ill overrule the
13 objection.
14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: So you knew he traveled to
15 Italy on that tour, correct?
16 MR. ZONEN: Im going to object on lack of
17 foundation or based on hearsay.
18 MR. MESEREAU: State of mind, Your Honor.
19 Ill be happy to rephrase it if the Court wants.
20 THE COURT: The objection is overruled.

21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you know that he

22 traveled to Italy on that tour as well?
23 A. No.
24 Q. How about Austria?
25 A. I dont remember.
26 Q. And England?
27 A. I dont remember.
28 Q. Do you remember he went to a lot of 5060

1 countries --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- on that tour? And he told you that,
4 didnt he?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And that tour lasted almost a year and a
7 half, didnt it?
8 A. Not really. I didnt stop seeing him for a
9 year and a half.
10 Q. But he was out of the country much of the
11 time, wasnt he?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. And he was out of Los Angeles much of the
14 time?
15 A. Out of -- yes.
16 Q. Now, you didnt often see him -- excuse me.
17 Let me rephrase that.
18 Do you remember him staying overnight at the
19 hideout apartment?
20 A. Yeah.

21 Q. Okay. And he didnt like to invite other

22 people to that apartment, right?
23 MR. ZONEN: Ill object as speculative; lack
24 of foundation.
25 MR. MESEREAU: Ill rephrase.
26 Q. Do you know whether or not Mr. Jackson liked
27 to keep his presence at that apartment private?
28 MR. ZONEN: Objection; speculative. 5061

1 THE COURT: Overruled.

2 You may answer.
3 THE WITNESS: I dont know.
4 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Okay. But you
5 didnt see him invite lots of people to that
6 apartment, did he?
7 A. No, I didnt see many people.
8 Q. Okay. And you were the only one that would
9 clean that apartment, right?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. And did you used to help Mr. Jackson prepare
12 when he was leaving town for the Bad tour?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And what did you used to do for Mr. Jackson
15 to help him?
16 A. Pack his stuff, his makeup, his clothes, and
17 shine his shoes.
18 Q. And he went on approximately 123 concerts
19 during that period, didnt he?
20 A. I dont know.

21 MR. ZONEN: Im going to object as lack of

22 foundation.
23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you know how many --
24 THE COURT: She said, I dont know, so next
25 question.
26 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. When you used to
27 clean the home at Havenhurst in Encino -- okay?
28 Havenhurst is a street, right? 5062

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And that was where Michael Jacksons parents
3 lived --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. -- right?
6 Did other family members live there at the
7 time you were cleaning that house?
8 A. I think Janet was still there. And LaToya.
9 Q. Okay. So to your knowledge, at the time you
10 cleaned that house, his parents, Janet, LaToya a
nd
11 Michael were living there, right?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. And would you go there every day?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. And were there other people besides
16 you that cleaned the house?
17 A. Not at that time. They didnt have a
18 housekeeper. I mean, they have one, but it quit
19 after about two months.
20 Q. Did you appear to be the primary

21 housecleaner?
22 A. Well, while Mr. Jackson was on tour, I end
23 up staying, cleaning the house too.
24 Q. Okay. So when he was out of town, you would
25 still go there to work, right?
26 A. Yeah.
27 Q. Now, would you bring Jason there when --
28 A. Yes. 5063

1 Q. -- when Mr. Jackson was out of town?

2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. And where would Jason typically be when you
4 worked at the house while Mr. Jackson was out of
5 town; do you know?
6 A. Outside in the arcade room. At the house.
7 Q. Okay. And would you see Mr. Jacksons
8 parents when you used to clean the house?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Would you see Janet?
11 A. Sometimes.
12 Q. And how about LaToya?
13 A. Yeah, sometimes.
14 Q. Okay. And what areas of the house did you
15 used to clean?
16 A. The whole house.
17 Q. Okay. Every day?
18 A. Yeah. If there was nothing else to do.
19 Q. Now, how long did you work -- excuse me.
20 Let me rephrase that.

21 For how long a period of time did you clean

22 the house at Havenhurst?
23 A. While he was on tour, I guess. I dont
24 remember. But it was many months, because Bill B
ray
25 told me that at least its going to be about six
26 months that he was going to be out of -- out of
the
27 country, and either I be laid off or work at the
28 house. 5064

1 Q. Okay. And did there come a point in time

2 when you stopped cleaning the house on Havenhurst
?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And approximately when was that, if you
5 remember?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. Was it 1986, do you think?
8 A. No.
9 Q. 1987?
10 A. 1987, yeah.
11 Q. Do you think it was 1987?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Okay. When you stopped cleaning the house
14 at Havenhurst, you kept working for Mr. Jackson,
15 right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And what did you do for Mr. Jackson after
18 you stopped cleaning the house on Havenhurst?
19 A. Well, went back to my same routine.

20 Cleaning his room and mainly being there. Even i

f I
21 didnt have anything to do, he wanted me in his
22 room.
23 Q. Okay. And which room are you talking about
24 now?
25 A. His bedroom.
26 Q. Okay. His bedroom now?
27 A. In Encino.
28 Q. In Encino, okay. Okay. So Mr. Jackson 5065

1 would leave town, but always wanted you to still

2 come to the house and do your work, right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you said that Mr. Bray told you
5 something about you might lose your work?
6 A. No, no, no. He told me that I either be
7 laid off or -- well, probably its the same thing
,
8 or work at the house.
9 Q. Okay. Okay. When you stopped working at
10 the house on Havenhurst, what were you doing the
n
11 for Mr. Jackson?
12 A. When I stopped working at the Havenhurst --
13 do you mean at the house?
14 Q. Yes. You kept working for Mr. Jackson,
15 right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And what were you doing then?
18 A. The same thing I was hired to do for him.
19 Pick up his clothes.

20 Q. And where were you doing that?

21 A. Cleaning his room. At the Havenhurst.
22 Q. No, no, after you stopped working at
23 Havenhurst.
24 A. Oh.
25 Q. Okay?
26 A. Uh-huh.
27 Q. You worked at Havenhurst for a while, right?
28 A. Yeah. 5066

1 Q. And then at some point you stopped cleaning

2 Havenhurst, didnt you; is that right?
3 A. Yeah, but we still live there -- I mean, he
4 still live there at the Havenhurst.
5 Q. Okay. Im sorry. Maybe Im confusing you.
6 There was a point in time when you didnt
7 clean Havenhurst anymore; is that right?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. And approximately when was that, do you
10 think?
11 A. No, I dont remember.
12 Q. Okay. You did work at Neverland at one
13 point, right?
14 A. Yeah, that was back after about three years.
15 Q. And when you worked at Neverland, were you
16 still working at Havenhurst?
17 A. When I still working --
18 Q. Im sorry?
19 A. -- at Neverland?
20 Q. Yes. Let me rephrase the question.

21 When you were working for Mr. Jackson at

22 Neverland - okay? - were you still doing work at
the
23 home on Havenhurst?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You were working full time at Neverland
26 then, right?
27 A. No.
28 Q. No? 5067

1 A. I would go to the hideout.

2 Q. Okay.
3 A. And sometime he will tell me to go to
4 Havenhurst to get stuff, or retrieve something,
5 or --
6 Q. So when you were living at Neverland and
7 working at Neverland, you still would sometimes g
o
8 to Havenhurst, right?
9 A. Yes. Sometimes.
10 Q. But most of the time you did your work at
11 Neverland, right?
12 A. Neverland and the hideout.
13 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, Mr. Jackson was very
14 generous to you, wasnt he?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. He gave you a couple of televisions; is that
17 right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you would also ask him from time to time
20 if you could take something, and he would often

say
21 Yes, right?
22 A. (Nods head up and down.)
23 Q. What are some of the things that you asked
24 him that youd like to have?
25 A. Knickknacks. And clothes. He gave me a
26 couple of jackets from his tour, I think. I don
t
27 remember. It was -- there were a lot of stuff.
28 Q. And did he give you any cash himself? 5068

1 A. I dont remember.
2 Q. Didnt he give you approximately $5,000
3 total at one point?
4 A. I dont remember.
5 Q. Wouldnt he give you 500 or 300 or $200 at a
6 time?
7 A. I dont remember.
8 Q. Do you remember saying that in your
9 deposition with Mr. Feldman?
10 A. Yeah. I probably did, yeah.
11 Q. So let me ask you what you remember.
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. Do you remember Mr. Jackson giving you 500
14 or 300 or $200 at a time?
15 A. He probably did, but at this time I dont
16 remember.
17 Q. Okay. Do you remember saying in your
18 deposition that, in total, he may have given you
19 $5,000?
20 A. I probably did.

21 Q. Okay. Does that sound accurate to you?

22 A. Yeah, probably, I did. It wasnt that much,
23 probably, but I dont remember how much he gave
me.
24 Q. Okay. But would you ask him for cash
25 sometimes?
26 A. No.
27 Q. Would he just volunteer and give it to you?
28 A. I dont remember that, you know. I dont -- 5
069

1 I dont -- I think so, but I dont remember.

2 Q. Okay. Im probably not being clear. Im
3 asking why Mr. Jackson gave you money. Would you
4 ask him for money once in a while?
5 A. I think I did -- I dont remember.
6 Q. Okay. But you do remember him giving you
7 money from time to time, right?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Okay. And youre not sure of the total,
10 right?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay. And did he give you money from time
13 to time during the entire period that you worked
for
14 him?
15 A. Someone -- yeah.
16 Q. Okay. And you dont recall him ever saying
17 No if you ever told him you needed some money,
did
18 he?
19 A. No.

20 Q. Okay. He always was generous with you with

21 money, wasnt he?
22 A. Yeah. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. All right. Now, your deposition was
24 taken in 1993, right? Do you remember that?
25 A. I dont remember.
26 Q. Okay.
27 A. But I think it was 94. I dont remember.
28 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just
5070

1 show you the transcript with a date on it? Would

2 that help you remember?
3 A. I mean, Ill read it and -- I know that it
4 was that, but I dont remember.
5 Q. If you saw the transcript, might that help
6 you remember? Would you like to see it?
7 A. Yeah. I mean, you can put whatever that you
8 want to and I will say probably.
9 Q. No, I dont want to do that. Would it help
10 refresh your recollection --
11 A. No.
12 Q. -- if I just show you the date on the
13 deposition?
14 MR. ZONEN: Your Honor, Id be prepared to
15 stipulate to the two dates of the transcript.
16 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Sure.
17 MR. ZONEN: And the first date is December
18 15, 1993.
19 MR. SNEDDON: Cant hear you.
20 MR. ZONEN: The first date --

21 MR. SNEDDON: Turn it on.

22 MR. ZONEN: We make this complicated, dont
23 we?
24 The first date is December 15, 1993. The
25 date of the second day of the deposition was Jan
uary
26 11, 1994. I would so stipulate.
27 MR. MESEREAU: So stipulated.
28 THE COURT: All right. Ill approve that 5071

1 stipulation.
2 THE WITNESS: I do remember 94. But I
3 dont remember the dates.
4 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Okay. Do you
5 remember in your deposition saying you had never
6 seen Mr. Jackson touch anyone improperly?
7 A. Yeah, I --
8 Q. Do you remember saying you never saw him
9 touch anyone?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. You did say that, didnt you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. And in that deposition, you told the
14 truth, right?
15 A. As -- as I recall it at that time, yeah.
16 Q. You told the truth at that time, right?
17 A. As I remember it.
18 Q. Yes. And you were under oath, right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And you said that you had never seen

21 Michael Jackson touch anyone in a sexual way, ri

ght?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Okay. And you said at no time while you
24 worked for Michael Jackson did you ever see him
have
25 sexual contact with anyone, right?
26 A. When I say sexual, I mean sexual.
27 Q. But you did say under oath that you had
28 never saw Mr. Jackson have sexual contact with 5
072

1 anyone, right?
2 A. No. No.
3 Q. Isnt that what you said?
4 A. Yeah, yeah, thats what I said.
5 Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned that Mr. Jackson
6 has a Jacuzzi, right?
7 A. Where at? At the Havenhurst?
8 Q. Well, lets start with Havenhurst.
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. Did Mr. Jackson have a Jacuzzi at
11 Havenhurst?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And just tell the jury where the Jacuzzi
14 was, please.
15 A. Its outside his patio.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. Outside of his bedroom.
18 Q. And did various family members use that
19 Jacuzzi?
20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you ever see anyone use that Jacuzzi at

22 Havenhurst?
23 A. Only Mr. Jackson.
24 Q. And it was outside?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Okay. Can you see that Jacuzzi from the
27 house?
28 A. No. 5073

1 Q. Can you see it from any windows?

2 A. Not from the house. From a separate -- from
3 a separate -- from -- I think from up on the gara
ge,
4 you can see it, but its not a bedroom.
5 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Jackson in that Jacuzzi
6 at Havenhurst?
7 A. I remember one time.
8 Q. One time seeing Mr. Jackson use the Jacuzzi
9 at Havenhurst?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Okay. But you didnt see anyone else ever
12 use it?
13 A. There was a little -- a boy there.
14 Q. Did you ever see his parents use the
15 Jacuzzi?
16 A. Whose parents? Michael?
17 Q. Yeah.
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you ever see Janet use it?
20 A. No.

21 Q. Ever see LaToya use it?

22 A. No.
23 Q. Ever see anyone use it besides Mr. Jackson?
24 A. No.
25 Q. All right. Was there a Jacuzzi at
26 Neverland?
27 A. Well, inside his bedroom there is a bathroom
28 with a Jacuzzi in it. 5074

1 Q. Okay. And you saw Mr. Jackson use that

2 Jacuzzi, didnt you?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Is it downstairs or upstairs in his bedroom
5 area?
6 A. Downstairs.
7 Q. Its downstairs; is that right?
8 A. His bedroom, yeah.
9 Q. Okay. Now, the prosecutor asked you
10 questions about Mr. Robeson, okay?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. And did you say that Mr. Jackson was
13 sleeping on a bed in the lower level of his bedr
oom?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. You didnt see him sleeping in the
16 bedroom on the upper level?
17 A. No.
18 Q. And was it your belief that during the time
19 you worked at Neverland, that Mr. Jackson only s
lept

20 on the bed on the lower level?

21 A. Yes. There were times that the other bed
22 was used.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. But I never saw him in that bedroom.
25 Q. So you would see the bed upstairs used, but
26 you didnt know who had used it, right?
27 A. No.
28 Q. You would see the bed downstairs used, but 50
75

1 you didnt know who used it, right?

2 A. It was time when it was just one -- one bed
3 was undone.
4 Q. Sometimes, right?
5 A. Sometimes.
6 Q. And sometimes there was a bed upstairs that
7 seemed undone, right?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. And you were responsible for making both
10 beds, right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Have you ever seen Mr. Jackson lying
13 on his bed watching television?
14 A. Yeah. A couple of times.
15 Q. How many times did you see Mr. Jackson lying
16 on his bed watching television?
17 A. Probably a couple of times.
18 Q. And you would see him watch videos also,
19 right?
20 A. Yeah.

21 Q. Were you often in Mr. Jacksons room when he

22 was watching television?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You typically cleaned his room when he
25 wasnt there, right?
26 A. Yeah.
27 Q. Is that true?
28 A. Yes. 5076

1 Q. And it was your understanding that you were

2 supposed to clean his room when he wasnt in ther
e,
3 right?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Was it your understanding that you werent
6 supposed to go in when Mr. Jackson was in the roo
m?
7 A. Yeah. Sometimes Ill unlock his room and
8 hell be there, and he tell me that it was okay t
o
9 come in.
10 Q. Okay. And sometimes you would unlock his
11 door, hed ask you not to come in, right?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Most of the time when you cleaned his room
14 at Neverland, he wasnt in it, right?
15 A. Most of the time when he wasnt in?
16 Q. Let me rephrase. Let me rephrase.
17 During the time you worked at Neverland,
18 most of the time when you cleaned his room, he
19 wasnt in there, right?

20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. You okay?
22 Do you want some water?
23 A. Huh?
24 Q. Do you want some water?
25 A. No, thats okay.
26 Q. Was it your understanding that when you
27 cleaned Mr. Jacksons room you were usually supp
osed
28 to do it when he wasnt around? 5077

1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Okay. Okay. And if you opened the door and
3 he was in there, you would ask for permission to
4 come in, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Now, his bedroom is a very big area,
7 isnt it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How would you describe it?
10 A. Big.
11 Q. Very big, isnt it?
12 A. Uh-huh. Yeah.
13 Q. And how do you get into his bedroom? If
14 youre going -- let me rephrase it. If youre go
ing
15 into Mr. Jacksons room, what do you have to do
to
16 get in?
17 A. Open the door with a key.
18 Q. Okay. And is that what you would typically
19 do?

20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was there any kind of a bell that would
22 ring?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And would the bell always ring when you
25 entered?
26 A. Yeah. But it -- it doesnt have a -- you
27 know, it would ring just once.
28 Q. Right. Just one ring? 5078

1 A. And then close, yeah.

2 Q. Would you then stop it? Would you shut the
3 bell off?
4 A. I used to unplug it.
5 Q. You unplugged it. Okay. So youd hear a
6 ring, and then you would unplug it; is that right
?
7 A. Well, you have to unplug it from the inside
8 of the bedroom.
9 Q. So youd open the door, right, with a key?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. The bell would go off, and then you would
12 unplug it, right?
13 A. When I was there by myself, I used to unplug
14 it.
15 Q. Okay. Okay. And then it would stop
16 ringing, right?
17 A. And it would stop ringing, yeah.
18 Q. And then you would do your cleaning, right?
19 Is that right?
20 A. No.

21 Q. Tell me what --
22 A. Ill get there --
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. -- and then -- once I get there, I unplug
25 it, because when people get close to it, it ring
s.
26 But it rings, and then it rings one time, it
27 doesnt ring anymore.
28 Q. Okay. Okay. To stop it from ringing, you 5079

1 would unplug it?

2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Okay. Okay. All right. Now, do you know
4 who Quincy Jones is?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And whos Quincy Jones?
7 A. A writer, I think.
8 Q. Okay. And his daughter used to visit
9 Michael, right?
10 A. At Havenhurst.
11 MR. ZONEN: Beyond the scope of the direct,
12 and irrelevant.
13 THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.
14 THE WITNESS: At Havenhurst?
15 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Yes.
16 A. I think she was there a couple of times.
17 Q. Her name was Kidada, right?
18 A. I dont know.
19 Q. But you saw her visit Michael, correct?
20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you ever see -- do you know who Lionel

22 Ritchie is?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you ever see his daughter visit the
25 Jacksons?
26 A. Not at Havenhurst.
27 Q. Okay. Did you see her visit Michael?
28 A. Him I remember visiting. 5080

1 Q. You remember him visiting Michael. You

2 dont remember his daughter?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay. Before you testified today, did you
5 meet with any prosecutor to discuss what you were
6 going to be asked?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. And when did that meeting take place?
9 A. Saturday.
10 Q. And who did you meet with?
11 A. I dont remember his name.
12 Q. Pardon me?
13 A. Ron, I think.
14 Q. Prosecutor Zonen?
15 A. And another one.
16 Q. Okay. And how long did the meeting take
17 place?
18 A. Couple of hours.
19 Q. And how many people were there meeting with
20 you?

21 A. Just the two of them.

22 Q. Did they tell you what they were going to
23 ask you in court?
24 A. They -- they went to what I say before.
25 Q. Did they discuss the questions they were
26 going to ask you today?
27 A. Kinda.
28 Q. And did they discuss your answers with you? 5
081

1 A. No. They told me about, you know, what I

2 say in my deposition before, and if I remember, a
nd
3 there was stuff that I didnt remember.
4 Q. Did they give you a copy of your deposition
5 to look at?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did they appear to be reading from your
8 deposition?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. Did they have any documents they
11 showed you?
12 A. Yeah. They gave me a paper of things that I
13 say when I talk to another detective.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. Not -- not at my deposition.
16 Q. Okay. So it was a paper that they gave you
17 to look at?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. And what was on that paper, if you remember?
20 A. When I talked to the other detectives, they

21 came, you know, at the beginning.

22 Q. Okay.
23 A. The first time.
24 Q. Do you remember meeting with a lawyer named
25 Larry Feldman?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And you met with Larry Feldman before your
28 deposition was taken, right? 5082

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And he came out to see you, didnt he? Let
3 me rephrase it. Maybe you dont understand.
4 A. Yeah, I understand.
5 Q. You do?
6 A. But I dont remember. Yeah, I think he did.
7 He came to my house, I think.
8 Q. He came to your house, didnt he?
9 A. (Nods head up and down.)
10 Q. And he wanted to speak to you before your
11 deposition was taken by him, right?
12 A. Yes. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. And obviously that was quite a while
14 ago, right? Was that around 1993 sometime?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. Do you remember how much time Larry
17 Feldman spent with you?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you remember if it was a long time?
20 A. I dont remember.

21 Q. Okay. Was that the only time you met with

22 Attorney Larry Feldman?
23 A. No. Then I was taken to L.A., and I --
24 Q. Did you meet with him again?
25 A. Yeah, for the deposition.
26 Q. Okay. And he was giving you some advice
27 during the deposition, wasnt he?
28 A. I dont remember. I dont think so. 5083

1 Q. Didnt he advise you from time to time

2 during that deposition?
3 A. I dont remember. There were a lot of
4 people talking to me at that one.
5 Q. And he was one of them talking to you,
6 wasnt he?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you said that deposition went more than
9 a day, right?
10 A. Yeah. It was twice.
11 Q. Okay. And was it after that deposition that
12 you first spoke to an attorney named Terry Canno
n?
13 A. That was -- that was after. After when Mr.
14 Cochran told me that my son was going to be
15 subpoenaed and I would have to bring him.
16 Q. Okay. And then you went to hire an
17 attorney, correct?
18 A. Then I -- yeah, then I talked to Terry.
19 Q. Okay. And has he been your lawyer ever
20 since?

21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Has he been your sons lawyer ever
23 since?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. When did you last talk to Terry
26 Cannon?
27 A. I think it was December or November. I
28 dont remember. It was in December. 5084

1 Q. Last December?
2 A. Last December.
3 Q. Okay. Okay. And do you remember having a
4 meeting with Prosecutor Zonen and Terry Cannon la
st
5 year?
6 A. On December? It was -- Zonen? I dont know
7 his last name. He was a tall guy.
8 Q. Prosecutor Zonen, who you see right here --
9 A. Oh.
10 Q. -- do you remember meeting with him?
11 A. Oh. Yeah, I think he was -- he was there,
12 too. Thats when they gave me that deposition.
13 Q. Okay. Okay. In your deposition, you said
14 that you had never seen Mr. Jackson molest a chi
ld,
15 right?
16 MR. ZONEN: Objection; asked and answered.
17 THE COURT: Overruled.
18 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: In your deposition, you
19 said under oath you had never seen Mr. Jackson

20 molest a child, right?

21 A. Molest a child? No. Yeah, I say that.
22 Q. Okay. Was it after that deposition that you
23 were interviewed by Hard Copy?
24 A. No.
25 Q. It was before?
26 A. Oh, before I met with him, with -- at my
27 deposition? No, that interview was before.
28 Q. So the interview with Hard Copy was before 50
85

1 the deposition --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- right?
4 And thats the interview you were paid
5 $20,000 --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. -- to do, right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And thats the interview that you had your
10 friend Evangeline help you arrange, right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And then after you were paid, you said you
13 paid her some money, right?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Okay. Okay. Did you ever talk to anyone
16 from The National Enquirer?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Is Hard Copy the only media --
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. -- group that you ever met with?

21 A. Yeah. I guess someone tried to -- someone

22 contacted me from National Enquirer, I think, an
d
23 from Los Angeles Time.
24 Q. In your deposition, you said the people from
25 Hard Copy are not honest, right?
26 A. Yeah.
27 Q. When did you last talk to anyone from Hard
28 Copy? 5086

1 A. When did I -- recently?

2 Q. Let me rephrase it.
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. After your interview with Hard Copy, did you
5 ever talk to them again?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. Did you tell Attorney Larry Feldman
8 that you were going to be interviewed by Hard Cop
y?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And Evangeline worked at Neverland, right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you tell anyone else who worked at
13 Neverland, besides Evangeline, that you were goi
ng
14 to be paid to interview with Hard Copy?
15 A. No. Not that I remember.
16 Q. Now, at some point you learned -- let me
17 rephrase that, excuse me. Let me start again.
18 After your interview with Hard Copy appeared
19 on television - okay? - at some point you learne
d

20 that other employees at Neverland now wanted to

be
21 paid to go on television to talk about Mr. Jacks
on,
22 right?
23 A. Did I know that?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. No.
26 Q. After you hired a lawyer --
27 A. Uh-huh.
28 Q. -- you learned that other employees at 5087

1 Neverland started hiring lawyers, right?

2 MR. ZONEN: Ill object. Lack of
3 foundation; speculative.
4 THE WITNESS: I dont remember that.
5 THE COURT: Wait.
6 The objections overruled.
7 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you learn at some
8 point after your Hard Copy interview was on
9 television, that now other people who worked for
10 Michael Jackson were hoping they could make mone
y
11 doing media interviews like you did?
12 MR. ZONEN: Objection; speculative.
13 THE WITNESS: No, I didnt know that.
14 THE COURT: Overruled.
15 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you discuss your Hard
16 Copy interview with anyone besides Evangeline at
17 Neverland?
18 A. I dont remember, no.
19 Q. Okay.

20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay. Who did you work for at Neverland?
22 A. Did I work for?
23 Q. Besides Mr. Jackson. I mean, who did you
24 work -- let me rephrase it.
25 Obviously you worked for Mr. Jackson, but
26 did you report to other people?
27 A. Did I report to other people? Oh.
28 Q. As part of your job. 5088

1 A. I was working as part of the household,

2 housekeepers.
3 Q. And who did you work with; do you remember?
4 A. The workers? I dont remember their names.
5 But I -- I --
6 Q. Okay. Now, the Hard Copy interview was in
7 1993, right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. It was in December of 1993, right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you stopped working in 1991, right?
12 A. (Nods head up and down.)
13 Q. So after you left -- after you stopped
14 working for Mr. Jackson, you stayed in touch wit
h
15 some people who worked for Mr. Jackson, right?
16 A. No.
17 Q. What about Evangeline?
18 A. But she wasnt working there no more.
19 Q. When did she stop?
20 A. Before me.

21 Q. Was she in touch with people at Neverland?

22 MR. ZONEN: Objection; speculation.
23 MR. MESEREAU: To your knowledge.
24 THE WITNESS: Not that I know.
25 MR. ZONEN: Theres an objection.
26 THE COURT: To her knowledge. Ill limit it.
27 She answered no, not that she knows.
28 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you talk to any 5089

1 representative of the media before you had your

2 deposition taken?
3 A. Did I -- did I talk --
4 Q. Im -- yes, let me rephrase it.
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. And if Im unclear, just tell me, and Ill
7 try and say it again.
8 You said your interview with Hard Copy was
9 after the deposition, right?
10 A. No. It was before.
11 Q. It was before. Okay. How long before it,
12 if you know?
13 A. About a month.
14 Q. Okay. Did you discuss the fact that you
15 were going to be interviewed by Hard Copy with a
ny
16 attorney?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay. Do you remember Evangeline saying to
19 you, Would you like to go to The National
20 Enquirer?

21 A. I dont remember.
22 Q. Pardon me?
23 A. I dont remember. I remember a guy called
24 me, but he never told me that someone refer me o
r --
25 Q. But didnt Evangeline suggest that you call
26 The National Enquirer?
27 A. No.
28 Q. She didnt? She didnt ask you, Do you 5090

1 want me to find The Enquirer?

2 A. I dont remember that, no.
3 Q. Would it refresh your memory if I just show
4 you a transcript --
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. -- of your deposition?
7 A. Oh, okay.
8 Q. Can I do that?
9 A. Yeah.
10 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach?
11 THE COURT: Yes.
12 MR. ZONEN: What page, Counsel?
13 MR. MESEREAU: 208.
14 Q. Have you had a chance to look at that page?
15 A. No. Oh.
16 (Laughter.)
17 Q. Youve had a chance to look at the page,
18 right?
19 A. Did I what?
20 Q. Have you had a chance to read that page

21 of your deposition?
22 A. Before today?
23 Q. No, no, today.
24 A. Oh, yeah.
25 Q. Okay. I just showed you the page, right?
26 A. Yeah.
27 Q. Have you had a chance to look at it?
28 A. Yeah. 5091

1 Q. And does it refresh your memory about what

2 Evangeline said to you?
3 A. You know, tell you the truth, I probably did
4 at that time. And I remember at the time, but thi
s
5 time I dont remember.
6 Q. Okay.
7 BAILIFF CORTEZ: Maam, speak into the mike.
8 THE WITNESS: Oops.
9 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Didnt you tell Evangeline
10 that you were willing to talk to The Enquirer?
11 A. I dont remember.
12 Q. Okay. Would it refresh your recollection
13 just to look at the page?
14 A. No.
15 Q. It wouldnt? So even if you read the page,
16 it wont help, do you think?
17 A. It wont help me.
18 Q. Okay. Okay. But you dont remember what
19 you said to Evangeline about talking to The
20 Enquirer?

21 A. I dont even remember the whole sit -- I

22 dont remember.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. It was a lot -- at that time, you know, it
25 was --
26 Q. Evangeline called Hard Copy for you, right?
27 A. Uh-huh. Yeah, I think so.
28 Q. And she did it for you, right? 5092

1 A. Yeah, I think she did.

2 Q. You wanted her to find a way to communicate
3 with Hard Copy, right?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Okay. And you wanted to talk to either Hard
6 Copy or The Enquirer, right?
7 A. I dont remember if it was either of them,
8 but I remember that I say yeah.
9 Q. Okay. Okay.
10 A. Because I think they approach her first,
11 someone approach her. And she said, Well, they
12 want to talk to you, too. Thats what I got.
13 Q. Did you have an understanding with
14 Evangeline that if she arranged these interviews
for
15 you, that you would pay her?
16 A. That I would pay her?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you believe she was just doing it as a
20 friend?

21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Okay. So you didnt have any arrangement
23 with her that you would split the money, right?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You gave her some money later on because you
26 appreciated what she had done for you, right?
27 A. Yeah. Yeah, because of the trouble that she
28 was going -- you know, she did, yeah. 5093

1 Q. Okay. So you gave her money as a friend,

2 right?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Okay. There was no understanding before the
5 interview with her how much she would get?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, Evangeline told you that
8 she had reached Diane Dimond of Hard Copy, right;
is
9 that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And Evangeline arranged for you to meet with
12 Diane Dimond, right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How many meetings did you have with Diane
15 Dimond with Hard Copy?
16 A. I think it was just one.
17 Q. Do you remember going to the Hilton Hotel?
18 A. My -- yes.
19 Q. Is that where you saw Diane Dimond during a
20 meeting?

21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And thats the meeting Evangeline went with
23 you to, right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You told Diane Dimond during that interview
26 that you never told anyone that you had ever see
n
27 Michael Jackson molesting boys, right?
28 A. Yes, I believe so. 5094

1 Q. And it was Evangeline that negotiated how

2 much money you were going to get, right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You learned that you were going to get
5 $20,000 from Evangeline, right?
6 A. From Hard Copy.
7 Q. Yeah.
8 A. Not from Evangeline.
9 Q. Let me rephrase it to make sure you
10 understand.
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. You learned from Evangeline that you were
13 going to get $20,000 for the interview with Hard
14 Copy, right?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Evangeline was supposed to speak to Hard
19 Copy about the money you were going to get, righ
t?

20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So she was really your assistant, wasnt
22 she?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Okay. If you remember, how long was the
25 meeting at the Hilton Hotel with Diane Dimond?
26 A. About three hours, probably.
27 Q. Okay. Were there other people at that
28 meeting as well? 5095

1 A. I dont remember. I dont think so.

2 Q. Do you know if you were given a contract to
3 sign?
4 A. I signed it, but I dont remember at what
5 time I did, if it was during that time or after t
he
6 interview.
7 Q. But you did sign the contract with Hard
8 Copy --
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. -- right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How did you get that contract?
13 A. How did I what?
14 Q. How did you get a copy of that contract?
15 A. I guess they give it to me.
16 Q. Okay. Did Miss Dimond give it to you
17 directly or did Evangeline give it to you?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Pardon me?
20 A. Miss Dimond gave it to me, I think.

21 Q. At the meeting?
22 A. I dont remember. It was during the -- in
23 the room.
24 Q. Okay. And you were asked to sign that
25 contract in that room before you left, right?
26 A. Yeah, I guess so.
27 Q. Is that what you remember?
28 A. Thats what I remember. I dont know. 5096

1 Q. Okay. Okay. The day after you were

2 interviewed by Hard Copy, Miss Dimond called you
3 again, right?
4 A. The day after?
5 Q. Yes. The day after your interview with Hard
6 Copy, Ms. Dimond called you again, right?
7 A. I dont remember.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. I dont remember her calling me, but I dont
10 remember if it was the next day or --
11 Q. Do you remember her wanting pictures of
12 Michael Jackson?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Ms. Dimond wanted you to get her pictures of
15 Mr. Jackson, right?
16 A. I dont remember.
17 Q. Do you remember that?
18 A. I think I give it to her, but I dont
19 remember.
20 Q. Okay. Do you remember saying to Ms. Dimond

21 you dont have pictures of Michael Jackson?

22 A. I dont -- ask that --
23 Q. Im sorry, I may not be explaining it
24 properly. Let me just rephrase the question. Il
l
25 withdraw the question.
26 A. Uh-huh.
27 Q. The day after you interviewed with Hard
28 Copy, Miss Dimond called you on the phone, right
? 5097

1 A. I dont remember.
2 Q. Well, after the interview with Hard Copy, do
3 you remember at some point in time Miss Dimond
4 called you?
5 A. I dont remember.
6 Q. Okay. Do you remember Miss Dimond ever
7 asking you to get her pictures of Michael Jackson
?
8 A. I dont remember, but I give it to her
9 sometimes. Or one time, I guess, she got some
10 pictures of him.
11 Q. And was that part of your contract with the
12 show Hard Copy, that you would give them picture
s?
13 A. Yeah -- yes.
14 Q. Okay. And when they paid you $20,000, was
15 part of what you had to do to give them pictures
?
16 A. Yes. I guess.
17 Q. Do you remember sending any pictures of Mr.
18 Jacksons animals to Hard Copy?
19 A. I think all the pictures I got, I give her,

20 it was me with animals, probably. But it was me

21 mostly. Not of animals.
22 Q. Did you send pictures of Mr. Jacksons lion?
23 A. No.
24 Q. How about his tiger?
25 A. Not -- I was in the picture, but it wasnt
26 by itself of the --
27 Q. Okay.
28 A. -- tiger. 5098

1 Q. You gave Ms. Dimond a picture of your son

2 with Mr. Jackson, right?
3 A. With Mr. Jackson? I dont remember, but
4 I -- no, I dont remember.
5 Q. Would it refresh if I just show you the
6 transcript of your deposition?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. May I approach, Your
9 Honor?
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 MR. ZONEN: Page number, Counsel?
12 MR. MESEREAU: 231.
13 MR. ZONEN: 231?
14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
15 review that page of your deposition?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you said under oath during the
18 deposition that you gave Ms. Dimond a picture of
19 your son and Mr. Jackson, right?
20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. And you could -- you didnt think

22 people would notice your son on the show, right?
23 A. Yeah. Probably. Probably, yes.
24 Q. You said in the deposition you didnt think
25 anybody would recognize who your son was on the
Hard
26 Copy show, right?
27 A. Yeah. Probably I said that.
28 Q. Thats what you said, right? 5099

1 A. I probably -- yes.
2 Q. Okay. Now, at some point, you called Diane
3 Dimond and she didnt return your calls, right?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. You called her because you thought she had
6 lied, right?
7 A. She had lied?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. I didnt like -- I thought that -- that Hard
10 Copy interview thing was going to be shown on Ha
rd
11 Copy, and then I see my pictures everywhere, and
12 even in The National Enquirer, and thats what I
13 thought that it was. You know, I didnt know tha
t
14 they can sell the story to someone else. Thats
how
15 I felt.
16 Q. Do you remember telling Ms. Dimond that you
17 had other pictures from Neverland Ranch --
18 A. I dont remember.

19 Q. -- that you could get? Do you remember

20 that?
21 A. No, I dont remember.
22 Q. Do you remember Miss Dimond telling you she
23 could send a messenger to get other pictures tha
t
24 you had of Mr. Jackson?
25 A. I dont remember that.
26 Q. Okay. You gave Ms. Dimond pictures of Mr.
27 Jackson after your interview, right?
28 A. I dont remember. 5100

1 Q. You dont remember if you gave the pictures

2 before or after the interview?
3 A. No, no, no. After -- of Mr. Jackson? No.
4 Q. Okay. Im asking you when you gave pictures
5 to Miss Dimond. Was it before the interview or
6 after it?
7 A. Oh. I think it was after.
8 Q. The prosecutor asked you questions about
9 Wade Robeson. Okay?
10 A. Uh-huh. Yes.
11 Q. Do you remember saying in your deposition
12 that you saw Mr. Robeson sleeping in Mr. Jackson
s
13 bed?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you remember you were asked how many
16 times you saw that, and you said, Maybe twice?
17 A. I dont remember that I say that, but I
18 think thats what it was.
19 Q. Maybe twice?

20 A. I remember -- I dont remember what I say at

21 the time, but I think that was the time -- I mea
n,
22 that was the times.
23 Q. So you think you saw Mr. Robeson in Mr.
24 Jacksons bed maybe twice?
25 A. Yeah.
26 Q. And you think you saw Mr. Jackson in a
27 shower with Mr. Robeson one time, right?
28 A. Yes. 5101

1 Q. But you said the shower was fogged up and

2 you couldnt really see, right?
3 A. I saw the figure.
4 Q. You saw the figure. And you heard a lot of
5 laughing, right?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. And you thought they were playing, right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In your deposition, you said under oath you
10 couldnt tell whether they were touching each ot
her
11 or not, right?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Do you remember meeting Joy Robeson, who is
14 Mr. Robesons mother?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When did you first meet Joy Robeson?
17 A. I dont remember.
18 Q. Do you know about when it was, what year?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. You told the jury that you walked

21 into the door at the hideout apartment and saw y

our
22 son on Mr. Jacksons lap one time, right?
23 A. Not at the hideout.
24 Q. Where was it?
25 A. Havenhurst.
26 Q. Okay. And you said your son was reading a
27 book?
28 A. (Nods head up and down.) 5102

1 Q. Is that right?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Okay. The prosecutor asked you questions
4 about finding money in your sons pants, right?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. You found the money in his pockets, correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Have you ever seen that Hard Copy interview
9 that you did?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Okay. Has anyone from the prosecution tried
12 to show it to you?
13 A. No.
14 Q. No? Okay.
15 A. I saw little hints. One day I got home and
16 they were showing, you know, like little parts,
what
17 they going to show the next day. Thats what I s
aw.
18 Q. Okay. Do you remember stating that you
19 thought Michael Jackson was very childlike?

20 A. Yeah. Yes.
21 Q. He very often acted like a child, in your
22 mind, right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you remember saying that he would let his
25 chimpanzee sleep in his room?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Do you remember that?
28 A. Yeah. 5103

1 Q. The chimpanzees name was Bubbles, right?

2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And Bubbles would sometimes stay in Mr.
4 Jacksons room, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You talked about Bubbles wearing a diaper,
7 right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You said the monkey didnt like the diaper,
10 right?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. And you would often clean after the monkey
13 was in Mr. Jacksons room, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You said at one time Bubbles got too old and
16 then there was another monkey, right? Right?
17 A. I remember -- I dont remember about the
18 other monkey, but it was Bubbles.
19 Q. Mr. Jackson and a lot of children used to
20 play with the monkey, didnt they?

21 A. At Havenhurst he only had Bubbles.

22 Q. Okay. But children would come and play with
23 the monkey, wouldnt they?
24 A. Not at Havenhurst. Just one time.
25 Q. Where would you see Bubbles?
26 A. At Havenhurst, I think.
27 Q. Okay. Did you ever see Bubbles at
28 Neverland? 5104

1 A. I dont remember. I think it was bigger at

2 that time.
3 Q. Okay. But he was at Neverland, right?
4 A. He was at Neverland? I dont remember.
5 Q. Okay. Okay. But you would often at
6 Neverland see Mr. Jackson playing with kids, righ
t?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. He would play with kids all the time,
9 wouldnt he?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And kids would often visit Neverland, right?
12 Is that true?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you -- excuse me, let me rephrase that.
15 Do you remember a dance room where Mr.
16 Jackson used to do dance routines?
17 A. A what?
18 Q. Im sorry. Let me rephrase it.
19 Do you remember a dance room --
20 A. Oh, a dance room, yeah.

21 Q. -- where Mr. Jackson used to practice dance

22 routines?
23 A. Where at? Neverland?
24 Q. Anywhere.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Where was the dance room?
27 A. Behind the theater.
28 Q. At Neverland, right? 5105

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you used to see Mr. Jackson go there and
3 practice dance, right?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. You also saw Mr. Jackson teaching children
6 to dance, right?
7 A. Playing with the kids.
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. And he used to teach children how he dances,
11 right?
12 A. I dont know if it was the children, but I
13 see him with the kids.
14 Q. Okay. In the dance room, right?
15 A. In the dance room, yeah.
16 Q. Okay. Have you ever discussed your sons
17 claim that Mr. Jackson improperly touched him wi
th
18 your son? Have you ever had a discussion about
19 that?
20 A. At one time, back in 94.

21 Q. Okay. You talked to your son about what he

22 said --
23 A. Im --
24 Q. Im sorry, go ahead.
25 A. I say, Whats going on? And he say, I
26 just dont want to talk about it.
27 Q. This was in 1994?
28 A. 94, I think so. 5106

1 Q. Have you ever discussed with your son his

2 claims about Mr. Jackson?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Never?
5 A. No. I -- I ask him that I was going to ask
6 his counselor.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. And he say no.
9 Q. Okay. So youve never discussed --
10 A. No.
11 Q. -- your sons claims with him?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay. Have you had a meeting with
14 Prosecutor Sneddon?
15 A. Yeah, one time.
16 Q. And approximately when was that?
17 A. 93, I think.
18 Q. Okay. Have you met with Mr. Sneddon since
19 1993?
20 A. No.

21 Q. Okay. Have you had any meetings with any

22 sheriffs to discuss your testimony?
23 A. Other than -- no.
24 Q. Okay. Have you ever had a meeting with any
25 sheriff about what youre going to say today?
26 A. Other than Saturday, that, you know, they
27 told me that I was going to come here.
28 Q. Okay. Okay. Was any lawyer at that 5107

1 meeting?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay.
4 THE COURT: Shall we take our break?
5 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.
6 (Recess taken.)
7 THE COURT: Go ahead.
8 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.
9 Q. Miss Francia, Id like to ask you some
10 questions about the deposition you gave on Janua
ry
11 11th, 1994, okay?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. Before you attended that deposition, you had
14 been asked to bring the contract you had with Ha
rd
15 Copy with you to the deposition, right?
16 MR. ZONEN: Im going to object as
17 irrelevant.
18 MR. MESEREAU: Your Honor, I believe the
19 prosecutor introduced the subject of Hard Copy.

20 MR. ZONEN: Not a contract.

21 THE COURT: The objections overruled.
22 You may answer.
23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember that? Let
24 me rephrase it.
25 A. Okay.
26 Q. Before you appeared at a sworn deposition on
27 January 11th, 1994, you had been asked to bring
a
28 copy of the contract you had with Hard Copy to t
he 5108

1 deposition, right?
2 A. I dont remember.
3 Q. Do you remember at that deposition, you said
4 you had destroyed the contract?
5 A. I dont remember what I said or --
6 Q. Do you remember saying youd gotten rid of
7 it?
8 A. I dont remember.
9 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just
10 show you the transcript?
11 A. Yeah.
12 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
13 THE COURT: Yes.
14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Miss Francia, have you had
15 a chance to review those deposition pages?
16 A. Did I have a -- had I had a chance? No.
17 Q. Im sorry, no. I just showed you some pages
18 from the deposition, right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you have a chance to review that portion

21 of the page that I showed you?

22 A. I havent read any of the deposition paper.
23 Q. Okay. Did you just read it when I showed it
24 to you?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And does it remind you that you said you had
27 gotten rid of the contract?
28 A. Yeah, I probably did. 5109

1 Q. Okay. Do you remember saying that in the

2 deposition?
3 A. No, I dont.
4 Q. Okay. Did you get rid of that contract at
5 some point?
6 A. Yeah, I dont have it anymore. Yeah, I
7 dont have it.
8 Q. Did you throw it out?
9 A. I think I -- yeah, I think I threw it away,
10 or --
11 Q. Did you throw it out before the deposition
12 of January 1994?
13 A. Yeah, I think I destroy -- I destroyed it.
14 Q. Okay. Do you remember stating in that
15 deposition that you showed the contract to Larry
16 Feldman?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you remember showing that contract to
19 Attorney Larry Feldman?
20 A. No, I dont remember.

21 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show

22 you the deposition page?
23 A. Yeah.
24 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
25 THE COURT: Yes.
26 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Miss Francia, have you had
27 a chance to look at that page of your deposition
?
28 A. No. 5110

1 Q. Okay. I just showed you a page of your

2 deposition --
3 A. Oh, just now, yeah.
4 Q. Did you have a chance to read that page?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about your
7 saying you let Larry Feldman see the contract?
8 A. I dont remember.
9 Q. Okay. You dont remember showing it to
10 Larry Feldman?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay. And you met with Larry Feldman, what,
13 twice?
14 A. Well, first it was here in Santa Maria. He
15 came down.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. And then I met with him when I went there
18 twice.
19 Q. So is that three meetings you had with
20 Attorney Larry Feldman?

21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And that would be in the early 1990s, right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Did you go to him to get some advice?
25 A. No.
26 Q. Did you talk to him about what you were
27 going to say on television?
28 A. No. 5111

1 Q. Youve talked to Santa Barbara Sheriff Russ

2 Birchim a number of times, havent you?
3 A. Russ Bir -- it was from Santa Barbara, but I
4 dont remember the name.
5 Q. Do you know a Santa Barbara sheriff named
6 Russ Birchim?
7 A. Russ --
8 Q. Do you know a Santa Barbara sheriff named
9 Russ Birchim?
10 A. I dont remember the name of it, but it was
11 a detective or sheriff.
12 Q. Do you remember when your son Jason first
13 spoke to any police officer about what he claims
14 happened with Michael Jackson?
15 A. I remember one of the times, but I dont
16 know which time it was.
17 Q. At your deposition, you said that you went
18 on Hard Copy after your son spoke to the police,
19 right?

20 A. I dont remember if it was before or after.

21 Q. Okay. Would it refresh your recollection to
22 just show you --
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. -- the deposition?
25 May I approach, Your Honor?
26 THE COURT: Yes.
27 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
28 look at that page from your sworn deposition? 51
12

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Does it remind you that your son had talked
3 to the police before you went on Hard Copy?
4 A. It doesnt -- I dont remember.
5 Q. Okay. Did you know your son was going to
6 speak to any police officer about Mr. Jackson?
7 A. No.
8 Q. It happened without you knowing about it?
9 A. I didnt know he was -- they were going to
10 talk to him.
11 Q. Do you have any idea why the police wanted
12 to talk to your son at that point in time?
13 A. No, I dont remember. I think when they
14 first talked to him, they came to the house and
15 asked me if they could talk to him, but I dont
16 remember when was this.
17 Q. Do you know who told the police anything
18 about your son?
19 A. I think they -- someone told me that they
20 needed to talk to my son, or they need to talk t
o me

21 about my son.
22 Q. Do you know if Larry Feldman, the attorney,
23 contacted the police about your son?
24 A. No, I dont know.
25 Q. Now, you worked approximately five years at
26 the Havenhurst address, right?
27 A. Altogether --
28 MR. ZONEN: Misstatement of evidence; 5113

1 objection.
2 THE WITNESS: Altogether --
3 THE COURT: Just a moment.
4 I sustain the objection, Counsel.
5 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.
6 Q. You worked for approximately two years at
7 Neverland, right?
8 A. Yeah.
9 MR. ZONEN: Objection; misstatement of
10 evidence.
11 THE COURT: Overruled.
12 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Is that true?
13 THE COURT: She answered Yes before.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 MR. MESEREAU: Oh, I didnt hear her. Thank
16 you.
17 Q. Now, while you were at Neverland, you
18 reported to someone named Norma Stakos, right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And who was Norma Stakos?

21 A. One of the secretaries. She was a

22 secretary.
23 Q. A secretary to who?
24 A. Mr. Jackson.
25 Q. Okay. And you would speak to her from time
26 to time, correct?
27 A. Yeah.
28 Q. And do you remember she talked to you in 5114

1 1991 about the fact that for the third time your
2 wages had been garnished by a creditor?
3 MR. ZONEN: Objection; irrelevant.
4 THE COURT: Sustained.
5 MR. ZONEN: And hearsay.
6 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ask Miss Stakos on
7 behalf of Mr. Jackson to help you with any bills
you
8 couldnt pay?
9 A. No.
10 MR. ZONEN: Objection; irrelevant.
11 THE COURT: Overruled. The answer was, No.
12 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you have a discussion
13 with Miss Stakos about the fact that she couldn
t
14 pay you?
15 A. No, never did.
16 Q. You dont know anything about a wage
17 garnishment?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What do you know about that?

20 A. That --
21 MR. ZONEN: Im going to object as
22 irrelevant.
23 MR. MESEREAU: I dont think so, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: I thought it was initially, but I
25 changed my mind. So Ill overrule the objection.
26 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: What do you remember
27 telling Miss Stakos about a wage garnishment?
28 A. About my taxes, not paying in time, and I 511
5

1 need -- you know, they needed to wage - how do yo

u
2 call that? - take money out of my paycheck.
3 Q. Did Miss Stakos help you with that?
4 A. Well, she was the payroll, so shes the one
5 who took it off of my paycheck. But she never gav
e
6 me money, or anybody gave me money to pay that.
7 Q. Do you remember you owed money to a store
8 called Deardens?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. And they were trying to garnish your
11 wages, right?
12 A. Uh-huh. Yeah.
13 Q. And did you -- you asked Miss Stakos to help
14 you straighten that out, right?
15 A. Not to straighten it, but to -- you know,
16 just to pay off of my check.
17 Q. Okay. And did she work with you on that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. And she did that for you on a couple

20 of other occasions, right?

21 A. I remember two times. And I dont remember
22 more than that.
23 Q. Okay. And she had a problem at one point
24 because you had a phony Social Security number,
25 right?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Okay. And she helped you straighten that
28 out, right? 5116

1 A. No.
2 Q. You eventually got a proper Social Security
3 number?
4 A. Yes. Yes.
5 Q. But you did discuss that with Miss Stakos,
6 right?
7 A. I dont remember. But they knew that I was
8 illegal, and Mr. Bray wanted to help me to get my
9 papers.
10 Q. Okay. And that got straightened out, didnt
11 it?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Okay. Did you know someone named Gayle
14 Goforth?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. And who was Gayle Goforth?
17 A. The housekeeper. One of the housekeepers.
18 The head housekeeper of the house.
19 Q. And did you work with her?
20 A. Yes.

21 Q. For how long did you work with her?

22 A. Probably a year, a year and a half. Maybe a
23 year.
24 Q. And at one point you admitted going into her
25 purse, right?
26 A. Uh-huh.
27 Q. And you went into her purse to see how much
28 she was being paid, right? 5117

1 A. Her purse was on top of the -- our desk, and

2 she have her check on top of it.
3 Q. And you admitted going into her purse,
4 right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. The purpose was to see what she was being
7 paid, wasnt it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. I admitted to Mr. Jackson.
11 Q. Excuse me?
12 A. I told Mr. Jackson about it.
13 Q. Yes. And he -- he didnt get you in any
14 trouble or anything, did he?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay. Now, you got a coffee table from Mr.
17 Jackson, didnt you?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And that was a beautiful oak table, right?
20 A. (Nods head up and down.)

21 Q. And where did that come from?

22 A. From Havenhurst.
23 Q. Okay. Did you ask for that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And he said you could have it, didnt he?
26 A. Yeah.
27 Q. Did you ask him for the watch that you
28 described before? 5118

1 A. No.
2 Q. How did you end up with the watch?
3 A. I think it was one of the boxes that he
4 get -- he get stuff from the companies, and I got
it
5 from there.
6 Q. Okay. And at some point did you tell Mr.
7 Jackson you had taken a watch?
8 A. No, he saw it on me. I show it to him.
9 Q. And he had no problem with that, right?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. And you indicated that he used to let you
12 take lots of things from time to time, right?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. And a lot of those things, I think you
15 described as samples; is that correct?
16 A. Samples, and gifts, and things that he get
17 from -- for himself.
18 Q. The oak coffee table had a signature on it,
19 didnt it?
20 A. A signature? Of him?

21 Q. Yes.
22 A. No.
23 Q. Didnt it have a signature of him?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You tried to sell that at one point, right?
26 A. No.
27 Q. Still have it?
28 A. Yeah, its in the garage somewhere. 5119

1 Q. Okay. When you left Neverland, who did you

2 report to to tell them that you were leaving?
3 A. Who did I report?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. I mean, I quit. I just --
6 Q. Yeah. When you quit, who did you go to and
7 say, I quit?
8 A. I told that lady who was working there at
9 that time. Gayle.
10 Q. And did you give her one days notice?
11 A. No.
12 Q. How much notice did you give?
13 A. No notice.
14 Q. Okay. You just left, right?
15 A. I just left.
16 Q. Okay. Now, on a couple of occasions you got
17 in trouble for not doing your time card properly
,
18 correct?
19 A. A lot of occasions.
20 Q. Huh?

21 A. A lot of occasions for being late.

22 Q. Yes, you got in trouble for being late,
23 right?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. And you got in trouble for not properly
26 doing your time card, right?
27 A. Yeah.
28 Q. Okay. But Mr. Jackson never yelled at you 512
0

1 or did anything mean to you, did he?

2 A. No. No.
3 Q. But you didnt get along with some of the
4 help, right?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. You didnt get along with Gayle Goforth,
7 right?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Shes the one whose purse you went into,
10 right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You and she just didnt get along, right?
13 A. In the beginning we got along very nice.
14 Q. Do you remember complaints that you wouldnt
15 let anybody get near Mr. Jackson?
16 A. That I would get --
17 Q. Do you remember --
18 MR. ZONEN: Ill object as hearsay --
19 THE WITNESS: That I would get --
20 MR. ZONEN: -- and vague.

21 THE COURT: Just a moment.

22 The objections overruled.
23 Do you want the question read back? Do you
24 want me to repeat the question for you?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, please.
26 THE COURT: Ill have the court reporter do
27 it.
28 (Record read.) 5121

1 THE WITNESS: No.

2 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Never heard of that?
3 A. Complaints that I wouldnt let anybody?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. No.
6 Q. On the staff at Neverland?
7 A. Probably that I was the one allowed in his
8 room, that I was -- I just wanted to do that --
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. -- myself.
11 Q. So you basically wouldnt let other people
12 on the staff get near his room?
13 A. Yeah.
14 MR. ZONEN: Objection; misstatement of
15 evidence.
16 THE COURT: Overruled. The answer was,
17 Yeah.
18 THE WITNESS: Because he told me that. He
19 told me not to let anyone in his room.
20 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Now, the prosecutor

21 asked you about the nickname Rubba, okay?

22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Rubba is short for Rubber Head, right?
24 A. I dont know.
25 Q. You never heard that?
26 A. I dont know.
27 Q. Okay.
28 A. I never hear that before. 5122

1 Q. And Mr. Jackson used to call his cousins,

2 Levon and Elijah, Rubba, right?
3 A. He call the kids Rubba, yeah.
4 Q. He also called kids Rubber Head, or
5 Rubba, right?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. Hed also use Apple Head, right?
8 A. I dont know.
9 Q. Hed use Doo-Doo Head, right?
10 A. Yeah. I think I hear that one time.
11 Q. Okay. But its certainly a term that he
12 used quite often, isnt it?
13 A. Rubba, yeah.
14 Q. He used it on lots -- he used it for lots of
15 children, including his own cousins, didnt he?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. Okay. When is the last time you talked to
18 Larry Feldman?
19 A. After the -- I mean, the last time I went
20 over there and testified, or for the subpoena.

21 Q. So that was quite a while ago?

22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, the prosecutor asked you
24 questions about what you said in the deposition
25 about what you could see in the shower, right?
26 A. Yeah.
27 Q. And in the deposition you said under oath
28 that all you could see was a shadow, right? 5123

1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Was that the truth?
3 A. A shadow, an image, yeah.
4 Q. Thats all you could see --
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. -- in the shower, correct?
7 A. I hear two voices.
8 Q. You heard giggling and laughing, right?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. And all you could see was a shadow through
11 the glass?
12 A. The glass, yes.
13 Q. And thats because the glass was fogged up,
14 right?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. Okay. You only saw one person in the
17 shower, right?
18 A. I saw him in the shower and the little kid.
19 Q. But in your deposition you said you could
20 only see one person, but you heard giggling, rig
ht?

21 A. Yeah, but I hear two people --

22 Q. You heard two people. You could only see
23 one through the glass, right?
24 A. Mostly, yeah. Mostly.
25 Q. Do you remember you were asked in your
26 deposition, Did you hear anything else other th
an
27 Michael laughing? And you said, No?
28 A. Yeah. 5124

1 Q. Was that the truth?

2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you remember in the deposition saying you
4 never saw anyone else in the shower but Mr. Jacks
on?
5 A. I dont think I say that.
6 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
7 you the transcript?
8 A. Okay.
9 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 MR. ZONEN: Page?
12 MR. MESEREAU: 401.
13 Q. Have you had a chance to look at that page
14 of the deposition?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Does it refresh your memory about what you
17 said about the shower?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. You saw one person, Mr. Jackson, right?
20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Or it looked like him through the glass,

22 right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And the only voice you really heard was Mr.
25 Jackson, correct?
26 A. No.
27 Q. That wasnt correct?
28 A. I hear two -- two. 5125

1 Q. You heard laughter?

2 A. Laughing and --
3 Q. And that was at Neverland, right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. Youve seen Mr. Jackson in his
6 Jacuzzi, correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Youve seen him playing in his Jacuzzi,
9 correct?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Youve never seen him molesting anyone in
12 his Jacuzzi, right?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Let me just make sure thats phrased
15 properly. Youve never seen Mr. Jackson improper
ly
16 touch anyone in his Jacuzzi?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Never saw that, right?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. Have you seen Mr. Jackson at

21 Neverland tickling and playing with children?

22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Youve seen him do that often, havent you?
24 A. Playing, yeah. Playing a lot with the kids.
25 MR. ZONEN: Ill object to the compound
26 nature of the question, tickling and playing.
27 THE COURT: Sustained.
28 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Youve seen Mr. -- 5126

1 MR. ZONEN: Move --

2 MR. MESEREAU: Oh.
3 MR. ZONEN: Move to strike the answer.
4 THE COURT: I think she clarified it in her
5 answer.
6 MR. ZONEN: Okay. Thats fine.
7 THE COURT: Go ahead, Counsel.
8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Youve seen Mr. Jackson
9 tickling children at Neverland, havent you?
10 A. Not that I remember, no.
11 Q. You never saw him playing in the yard?
12 A. Playing in the yard, yeah. Not tickling --
13 MR. ZONEN: Objection to the use of
14 playing and tickling interchangeably as
15 compound.
16 THE COURT: Sustained.
17 MR. MESEREAU: All right. Ill move on.
18 Q. Youve seen children at Neverland from an
19 organization called Make-A-Wish Foundation, corr
ect?
20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And children from Make-A-Wish Foundation

22 often used to visit Neverland, right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And they would crowd and climb all over
25 Michael Jackson, right?
26 A. Play with him, yeah.
27 Q. Well, they would all just surround him,
28 wouldnt they? 5127

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you would see him play with them often,
3 didnt you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You would see those children running around
6 Neverland a lot, correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And Mr. Jackson used to run around with
9 them, didnt he?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. He used to take them to the theater to watch
12 movies, didnt he?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And children would sometimes sit in his lap
15 in the theater watching the movies, didnt they?
16 A. I --
17 Q. Did you ever see that?
18 A. I never see that. Because I --
19 Q. Im sorry.
20 A. I was never there when he was there with

21 kids.
22 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, have you participated in
23 any event -- excuse me, during the time you work
ed
24 at Neverland, did you participate in any large
25 events when guests would come to Neverland?
26 A. In any events, like --
27 Q. Guests, parties, things of that sort?
28 A. Yeah, we used to have an employee barbecue 51
28

1 or -- then we all would come.

2 Q. Do you remember any other big events at
3 Neverland while you worked there?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you remember helping set up for guests
6 who would visit?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. That would happen a lot, wouldnt it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And when guests were going to visit
11 Neverland, what would you do?
12 A. What do you mean?
13 Q. Yeah. What were your responsibilities when
14 guests would visit Neverland? What kind of work
15 would you do?
16 A. Help in the house, help the cooks, help to
17 clean their bedrooms.
18 Q. Would you clean bedrooms other than Mr.
19 Jacksons?
20 A. Yeah, the guest rooms.

21 Q. And you used to see guests stay in the guest

22 quarters from time to time, right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Would you see Mr. Jacksons children in the
25 main house when you worked there?
26 A. If I see who?
27 Q. Did you ever see any children --
28 A. Oh. 5129

1 Q. -- staying in the guest main house when you

2 were there?
3 MR. ZONEN: Objection. Guest main house?
4 MR. MESEREAU: That didnt come out too
5 well. I withdraw that.
6 Q. When you worked at Neverland, did you see
7 any children who used to stay there, besides what
8 youve described?
9 MR. ZONEN: Stay where? Objection; vague.
10 MR. MESEREAU: Neverland.
11 THE WITNESS: Stay where, at the guest
12 rooms?
13 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Yes.
14 A. No. They will stay in the house, in the
15 main house.
16 Q. Children usually stayed in the main house,
17 right?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. And do you know someone named Frank Cascio?
20 A. Frank Cascio. No, I dont remember.

21 Q. Do you know a family named Cascio?

22 A. No. I dont remember.
23 Q. Do you know someone named Tyson?
24 A. No.
25 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. No further questions
26 at this time.
27
28 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 5130

1 BY MR. ZONEN:
2 Q. Miss Francia, you told us that Mr. Jackson
3 had mentioned to you about not letting people in
his
4 room. What exactly was it that Mr. Jackson told y
ou
5 in that regard?
6 A. Not to let people in; that people want to
7 know about his business all the time, and not to
let
8 anybody get in there.
9 Q. Did he tell you people in particular?
10 A. No. Just everybody. Anybody.
11 Q. Was that something he said to you often?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Did you have a key to that room?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did he tell you he wanted the room kept
16 locked?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. During the time that you worked for him at
19 Neverland, did you see people coming and going i

nto
20 his room?
21 A. No.
22 Q. During the time that you worked at
23 Neverland, did that door stay locked fairly
24 regularly?
25 A. Closed all the time.
26 Q. Were there ever people coming and going into
27 his room that he did not give permission to come
and
28 go into the room? 5131

1 A. No.
2 Q. Did Wade Robeson come and go into his room
3 at will?
4 A. Yeah. Kids were allowed to go there.
5 Q. Other kids were allowed to come into his
6 room?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. If he was there -- if he was not there, or
9 only when he was there?
10 A. Kids were there when he was there.
11 Q. If he wasnt there, they didnt stay in his
12 room?
13 A. They -- they never came when he wasnt
14 there.
15 Q. On those occasions that he was traveling,
16 the Bad tour -- Mr. Mesereau was asking you ab
out
17 his travels during the Bad tour.
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. And he mentioned a period of time that
20 exceeded a year and a half that he was on tour.

Was
21 he continuously away from California for a full
year
22 and a half, or would he come and go?
23 A. Hed come and go.
24 Q. There were times that he would return?
25 A. Yeah.
26 Q. And stay?
27 A. Yeah.
28 Q. Do you know the longest period of time that 5
132

1 he would be away from his residence during that

2 time?
3 A. Probably about three months.
4 Q. Three months? Was the residence both the
5 Encino home and the hideout in L.A.?
6 A. It was mostly the hideout.
7 Q. Did that tour extend to the period of time
8 after which he moved to Neverland Ranch, or was h
e
9 completed with his tour by then; do you recall?
10 A. I dont remember.
11 Q. You told Mr. Mesereau that you had answered
12 a question in the deposition about seeing a shad
ow
13 in the shower. What did you mean by that? What i
s
14 a shadow? Tell me, what is a shadow?
15 A. An image.
16 Q. An image. All right. What did you see when
17 you looked into that shower?
18 A. Mr. Jackson.
19 Q. All right. Did you see the shadow of Mr.

20 Jackson, or did you see a person that looked lik

e a
21 shadow?
22 A. Through the glass.
23 Q. What did you see through the glass?
24 A. Mr. Jackson.
25 Q. The actual person?
26 A. Yeah.
27 Q. Okay. You didnt see his shadow cast
28 against a wall, or against the floor? 5133

1 A. Huh-uh. No.
2 Q. All right. So what did you mean by the word
3 shadow?
4 A. His image.
5 Q. His image. Thats what he looked like?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. All right. And was the door blurred during
8 that time?
9 A. Yeah.
10 MR. ZONEN: Excuse me. These are all next
11 in order, please.
12 Q. At the time that you looked through the
13 glass into the shower, were you able to see a se
cond
14 person in there?
15 A. I want to say yeah, but I dont -- you know,
16 I hear the laughing and the talking and, you kno
w,
17 playing, and I -- I didnt see the actual person
,
18 but it was moving, you know, with him.
19 Q. Do you believe that you saw the image of a

20 second person?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. But not as clearly as Mr. Jackson?
23 A. Not as clearly, no.
24 Q. Did you hear one voice or two?
25 A. Two.
26 Q. And were you clear about that?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And did you tell that to Mr. Feldman in the 5
134

1 deposition?
2 A. Oh.
3 Q. Im sorry?
4 A. I dont remember.
5 Q. You dont remember what you said?
6 A. No.
7 Q. The deposition was how many years ago?
8 A. More than ten years, I think.
9 Q. Okay. The portion that Mr. Mesereau asked
10 you, when he showed you that transcript about on
e or
11 two people, do you recall when in the deposition
12 that question was asked of you? Was it the first
13 day or the second day of the deposition?
14 A. I dont know.
15 Q. Was it toward the end of the deposition?
16 A. I dont know. I think so. I dont
17 remember.
18 Q. Before the deposition began, did they ask
19 you if you wanted to testify in either English o

r
20 Spanish?
21 A. I dont think so.
22 Q. Did they simply assume that you would
23 testify in English?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. All right. This was 11 years ago?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Is your English as good as it is now?
28 A. A little better, I think. 5135

1 Q. A little better now?

2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Would you have preferred to have testified
4 in Spanish at that time?
5 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Relevance; calls
6 for speculation.
7 THE COURT: Sustained.
8 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Were you comfortable in
9 English at this time?
10 A. I wish it would have been in Spanish.
11 Q. Did you understand all of the questions that
12 were asked of you during that deposition?
13 A. I was very confused.
14 Q. Were you confused as to some of the
15 questions?
16 A. Yeah, and all the lawyers and --
17 Q. There were a lot of lawyers there, werent
18 there?
19 A. Yeah.
20 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Leading; move to

21 strike.
22 THE COURT: Overruled. Next question.
23 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Were you intimidated during
24 that deposition?
25 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
26 THE COURT: Sustained.
27 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: How did you feel during that
28 deposition? 5136

1 MR. MESEREAU: Objection --

2 THE WITNESS: I was uncomfortable.
3 MR. MESEREAU: -- knowledge; foundation.
4 THE COURT: Overruled. She said,
5 Uncomfortable.
6 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: You remembered the monkey
7 Bubbles -- excuse me, the chimp, the chimpanzee;
is
8 that right?
9 A. Bubbles, yes.
10 Q. Was Bubbles at more than one location?
11 A. I dont remember that. I think I remember
12 that other little monkey. I think it was a
13 different one. But I remember Bubbles at
14 Havenhurst. And then he was taken to some kind o
f
15 farm or trainer.
16 Q. Did Bubbles get a little too big?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. Did Bubbles get rambunctious, wild?
19 A. Wild.

20 Q. Did Bubbles ever bite you?

21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. On more than one occasion?
23 A. Twice.
24 Q. Twice?
25 At some time did you become a legal
26 resident?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And you had told them at Neverland about 5137

1 your status?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Is that correct?
4 A. It was at that time. At that time that I --
5 Q. While you were working at Neverland; is that
6 correct?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. You mentioned about the coffee table. Where
9 was the coffee table at the time that Mr. Jackson
10 gave it to you?
11 A. Havenhurst.
12 Q. It was at Havenhurst. And where at
13 Havenhurst?
14 A. It was at his dance floor.
15 Q. Uh-huh.
16 A. And on top, in the attic.
17 Q. In the attic?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. Was it being used as a coffee table or was
20 it being stored?

21 A. No, it was being used. It just -- I guess

22 the room was too small, and, you know, it was ju
st
23 in the way for everybody to -- I mean, for -- I
24 guess for people to be there, and --
25 Q. How did the coffee table end up going to
26 you?
27 A. Because he wanted it to move out. He wanted
28 it to be moved out, out of there. 5138

1 Q. He was getting rid of it?

2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you knew that?
4 A. Well, he said, Move it out of here, and I
5 asked him if I can take it.
6 Q. And what did he say?
7 A. And he said, Yeah, take it.
8 Q. Mr. Mesereau asked you questions about your
9 interview with Hard Copy.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. Were you interviewed by more
12 than one person with Hard Copy?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Was that one person Diane Dimond?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you have more than one conversation with
17 her?
18 A. Do you mean personally?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Yes, just one.

21 Q. Was there a conversation, like an interview,

22 and then the interview on television?
23 A. No, that -- the same day we did everything.
24 She came to the lobby of the hotel, and then we
went
25 upstairs and did it.
26 Q. She came to the lobby. So it was all on the
27 same day?
28 A. Uh-huh. 5139

1 Q. Was the interview done at the hotel?

2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Were there a number of questions that were
4 asked of you during that interview?
5 A. There were many questions asking about who?
6 Me?
7 Q. Were there a lot of questions that they
8 asked?
9 A. Oh. Yeah.
10 Q. I say they, but actually, was it just
11 Diane Dimond who asked you questions?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Yes?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was anyone else asking you questions?
16 A. No, I dont remember. I dont think so.
17 Q. Did you know in advance what the questions
18 were going to be?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Were you surprised by what the questions

21 were?
22 A. Yeah. Yes.
23 Q. Did you know it was going to be about
24 Michael Jackson?
25 A. No. I thought it was going to be about me
26 working there.
27 Q. All right. That was the part that surprised
28 you? 5140

1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Were you upset about it?
3 A. Yeah, because then I start to answer, and I
4 felt like I was just there, you know, answering
5 questions that I didnt know they were going to a
sk
6 me.
7 Q. Okay. Did it upset you?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Did you tell them you were upset about that?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Were you truthful in your answers?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Mr. Mesereau asked you if it was true that
14 you told Diane Dimond in this interview that you
15 never saw Michael Jackson molest a child; is tha
t
16 correct?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. What else did you tell Diane Dimond in the
19 interview?

20 A. I dont remember.
21 Q. Did you tell Diane Dimond about seeing him
22 sleeping with boys?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Did you tell her that that concerned you?
25 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. These are leading
26 questions.
27 THE COURT: Sustained.
28 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Was there any conversation 5141

1 with Diane Dimond regarding any of the boys that

you
2 testified to so far today?
3 A. Im sorry, repeat?
4 Q. Was there any conversation with Diane Dimond
5 regarding the testimony youve given today about
any
6 of those boys? You testified about Wade Robeson.
7 You testified about Macaulay Culkin. Did you
8 discuss either of those boys with Diane Dimond?
9 A. No, I said -- I think the only -- that I say
10 that I see him is sleeping with the kids and bei
ng
11 in the bathtub with them, playing.
12 Q. And you told Diane Dimond that?
13 A. Yeah, I think I did.
14 Q. Now, this is the bathtub or this is the
15 shower?
16 A. I dont remember if I told her about the
17 shower. But I remember that I told him about the
18 bathtub and the Jacuzzi, I think.

19 Q. Im sorry?
20 A. I told her about the Jacuzzi and the
21 bathtub, I think.
22 Q. And being there with boys?
23 A. Being with boys. Yeah, that I will clean up
24 their -- you know, their toys in the bathtub.
25 Q. Mr. Mesereau asked you on cross-examination
26 if you ever saw Michael Jackson in the Jacuzzi a
t
27 the Havenhurst residence; is that correct?
28 A. Excuse me? Mr. -- 5142

1 Q. Mr. Mesereau asked you if you saw Mr.

2 Jackson in the Jacuzzi at the Havenhurst residenc
e.
3 A. Uh-huh. Yeah.
4 Q. And you said, Yes?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. With a boy; is that true?
7 A. It wasnt -- yeah.
8 Q. Mr. Mesereau asked you if you had seen
9 Michael Jackson in bed with Wade Robeson twice, a
nd
10 you said, Yes?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. Did you actually see Wade Robeson in bed
13 with Michael Jackson?
14 A. Yeah. Yes.
15 Q. And that was on two different occasions?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. That doesnt include the times that you
18 didnt see them in bed, but you cleaned up after
19 them?

20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. When were the two times that you actually
22 saw him in bed with Wade Robeson?
23 A. When was the two times? Do you mean the
24 dates?
25 Q. Well, I doubt you could do that, but --
26 could you do that? Do you know the dates?
27 A. No. No.
28 Q. Can you give me -- do you remember the two 51
43

1 occasions when you saw them? Do you remember eith

er
2 of the two occasions?
3 A. Just simply be in bed with him.
4 Q. How did that happen, that you were there and
5 they were in bed together? How did it happen that
6 you saw them?
7 A. Watching T.V.
8 Q. They were watching T.V. Were they inside
9 the bed or on top of the bed?
10 A. Inside the bed.
11 Q. Do you remember what they were wearing?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you remember if they were wearing
14 anything?
15 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; no foundation.
16 THE WITNESS: No.
17 THE COURT: Just a moment.
18 Sustained.
19 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Could you see any clothing on

20 either one of them?

21 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; foundation.
22 THE COURT: Overruled.
23 You may answer.
24 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Could you see any clothing on
25 either one of them?
26 A. I saw from the waist up, so -- I dont know
27 if they had pajamas or --
28 Q. But from the waist up, were either one of 514
4

1 them wearing anything?

2 A. No.
3 Q. They were both nude from the waist up?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. On both occasions?
6 A. On one occasion I remember.
7 Q. On one occasion?
8 A. On one occasion.
9 MR. ZONEN: May I have those photographs,
10 Counsel? Oh, thank you.
11 Q. Id like to show you a series of
12 photographs, if I may. These photographs are
13 numbered consecutively 783 through 789.
14 May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
15 THE COURT: Yes.
16 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Let me begin with Photograph
17 No. 783. Could you take a look at that photograp
h?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. Do you recognize the content of that
20 photograph?

21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. And what is that of?
23 A. This is Mr. Jackson.
24 Q. Oh, you need to use the microphone. I dont
25 think anybody can hear you.
26 783, then, is what, please?
27 A. Mr. Jacksons bed.
28 Q. Thats his bedroom? 5145

1 A. His bedroom, yeah.

2 Q. Is that upstairs or downstairs?
3 A. Downstairs.
4 Q. Does this show the bed?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. 784, please, what is that?
7 A. Thats his bedroom.
8 Q. Upstairs or downstairs?
9 A. Downstairs.
10 Q. 785, what is that, please?
11 A. His bedroom.
12 Q. Upstairs or downstairs?
13 A. Downstairs.
14 Q. 786, what is that?
15 A. Thats the Jacuzzi.
16 Q. Im sorry?
17 A. The Jacuzzi.
18 Q. First floor?
19 A. In the bathroom.
20 Q. Okay. And can you see where the shower is

21 in that photograph?
22 A. I can just see the -- right here, the frame,
23 the door frame.
24 Q. If I were to give you a pen and ask you to
25 draw an arrow to where the shower goes, would yo
u do
26 that?
27 A. Yeah. I mean, the --
28 Q. Yes, go ahead. 5146

1 Okay. And for the record, an arrow has been

2 drawn to the far right side of this exhibit,
3 No. 786.
4 No. 777, can you tell me what that is?
5 A. Thats the bathroom.
6 Q. The shower?
7 A. The shower.
8 Q. On the first floor?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. No. 788, what is that, please?
11 A. Thats the shower, thats the security -- I
12 mean, the bedroom -- I mean, the closet.
13 Q. And thats the garden?
14 A. And thats the Jacuzzi.
15 Q. Okay. Now, we were looking at a few
16 different things that you -- were going to go
17 through this when we present it.
18 But in this photograph, which is No. 788,
19 can you see both the Jacuzzi and the room that h
as
20 the shower in it?

21 A. Yes. Right across from each other.

22 Q. Okay. And then finally, 789, if youd look
23 at that, please.
24 A. Yeah, this is the room upstairs.
25 Q. Thats the bedroom upstairs?
26 A. The bedroom upstairs, yes.
27 Q. And that has a bed as well?
28 A. Yeah. 5147

1 Q. The photographs that Ive just asked you to

2 look at, which are No. 783 through 789, do each o
f
3 these photographs accurately depict the subject
4 matter contained in the photograph, which means a
re
5 they accurate? Are the photographs accurate of
6 those rooms and those locations?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Now, are these accurate as of 1993?
9 A. Do you mean --
10 Q. As of the time that you were there, last
11 there, is it how it looked around the time when
you
12 were there?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. Tell me whats different.
15 A. Well, the T.V. -- like, the bed is the same
16 thing. And the television is the same. Its just
17 more stuff in it.
18 Q. Just more stuff in it?

19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Okay. And the one that youre looking at,
21 as you say that, is 783.
22 All right. And 784, does that appear the
23 same as you last saw it?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Whats different?
26 A. Theres more stuff in it.
27 Q. More stuff?
28 A. Yeah. 5148

1 Q. But the furniture is in the same place?

2 A. Yes.
3 Q. 785?
4 A. Yeah. This wasnt here when I was there.
5 Q. Im sorry?
6 A. It wasnt -- it wasnt like when I used to
7 clean it.
8 Q. How was it different?
9 A. The paintings and this mannequin.
10 Q. All right. Im going to withdraw this one.
11 Im going to withdraw 785.
12 786. Take a look at 786.
13 A. Yeah, thats the same. I mean, thats the
14 same, the same as far as the furniture, and even
the
15 towels and --
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. -- the toys.
18 Q. 787?
19 A. Its the same.
20 Q. Okay.

21 A. Its just crowded.

22 Q. 788?
23 A. Yeah, its the same.
24 Q. And seven -- let me see that again. All
25 right. This was 789 that I showed you and
26 originally called it 787.
27 Back to 789. So this is the same?
28 A. Yes. 5149

1 Q. All right. Here is the real 787, with the

2 shower. Is that the same?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. And then 787 is the same?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. ZONEN: Okay. Your Honor, Im going to
7 move into evidence 783, 784, 786, 787 and 788 and
8 789, and withdraw 785.
9 MR. MESEREAU: No objection.
10 THE COURT: Theyre admitted.
11 MR. ZONEN: May I publish these at this
12 time?
13 THE COURT: Yes.
14 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Mrs. Francia, this is a laser
15 pen, and it sheds a laser beam. And you just go
16 like that. Dont show it in anybodys eyes.
17 The first one is 783. And would you tell us
18 what that is, please?
19 A. 783, this?
20 Q. Yes, that room.

21 A. Mr. Jacksons bed and --

22 Q. Oh, we have a problem. Unfortunately,
23 youre going to have to turn back to use the
24 microphone. Take a look at it, and then turn bac
k
25 to use the microphone so we can hear you.
26 A. Thats Mr. Jacksons bed, and television.
27 And thats the entrance, the stair that goes to
the
28 stairs, three. And then you go around to the 515
0

1 bathroom.
2 Q. Okay. 784. And tell us what that is,
3 please.
4 A. Thats the same. This will be the
5 television cabinet.
6 Q. And this is the first floor again; is that
7 right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. All right. Now, did you say that there was
10 some things that werent there --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. -- at the time that you last worked for Mr.
13 Jackson.
14 Show us what that is.
15 A. These pictures here.
16 Q. Those pictures right there. Anything else?
17 A. This horse.
18 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Jackson did not have
19 children of his own at that time, did he?
20 A. No.

21 Q. Okay. 786, please.

22 Now, heres the one where I asked you to put
23 an arrow. Do you recognize the arrow where you p
ut
24 it?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Show it.
27 A. Right there.
28 Q. What does that point to? 5151

1 A. The shower.
2 Q. And where is the shower?
3 A. Right here. About right here.
4 Q. And you had told us earlier in your -- this
5 is the first-floor bathroom; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you told us earlier in your testimony,
8 that you had to come closer to be able to see int
o
9 that room?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you show us in this picture where you
12 were standing at the time that you actually look
ed
13 into that room?
14 A. Probably about right here. So I can see in.
15 Q. All right. And then you said that there was
16 also a Jacuzzi outside?
17 A. Its a shower. Right there.
18 Q. A shower. So is that on the other side of
19 that wall, the back wall?

20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right. Next picture, please.
22 And this, I think, is 787. And what is
23 that?
24 A. Thats the shower.
25 Q. All right. Is that the same door that you
26 recall?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. All right. And thats the shower that you 515
2

1 gave testimony to.

2 And the last one, please. Two more.
3 788. And this is 788. Is that the same
4 bathroom downstairs?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All right. Do you have a better view of the
7 room that has the shower?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Show us where that is, with the laser.
10 A. Right here.
11 Q. Okay. Thats the toilet that you can see?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And on the other side of the toilet is the
14 shower?
15 A. Uh-huh. Right next to it.
16 Q. All right. Can you show us now where you
17 were standing? Can you put the laser on where yo
ur
18 feet were at the time you were standing?
19 A. Probably right here. Right here on this
20 corner.

21 Q. Okay. And then finally, 789.

22 And what is that, please?
23 A. Thats his -- thats another room.
24 Q. That was the bed upstairs?
25 A. Uh-huh. Second floor.
26 Q. Now, Mr. Mesereau asked you about that bed.
27 Sometimes it is slept in and sometimes it is not
.
28 A. Yeah. 5153

1 Q. During that period of time that Wade Robeson

2 was coming and visiting, was that bed slept in a
3 lot?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Was it slept in infrequently?
6 A. No, I always -- just only when a lot of kids
7 were there.
8 Q. Okay. If it was just Wade Robeson, he
9 didnt sleep in that bed?
10 A. No.
11 Q. How about Macaulay Culkin?
12 A. No.
13 Q. He didnt either?
14 A. No.
15 MR. ZONEN: Thank you.
16 I have no further questions, Your Honor.
17 And these exhibits are in evidence. Yes,
18 they are. Thank you. No further questions.
19
20 RECROSS-EXAMINATION

21 BY MR. MESEREAU:
22 Q. Just very briefly.
23 When -- during the time you worked at
24 Neverland, Mr. Jackson would often have guests i
n
25 his room, right?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And people would often hang out on his bed
28 and watch television, correct? 5154

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You would often serve them food, right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you would serve them drinks, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. That went on at all hours of the day,
7 correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. MESEREAU: No further questions.
10 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
11 MR. ZONEN: And I have no further questions,
12 Your Honor.
13 THE COURT: All right. You may step down.
14 And well recess for the day. And theres
15 no court tomorrow. Ill see you Thursday morning
.
16 (The proceedings adjourned at 2:30 p.m.)
17 --o0o--
18
19
20

21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 5155

1 REPORTERS CERTIFICATE
2
3
4 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE )
5 OF CALIFORNIA, )
6 Plaintiff, )
7 -vs- ) No. 1133603
8 MICHAEL JOE JACKSON, )
9 Defendant. )
10
11
12 I, MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR,
13 CSR #3304, Official Court Reporter, do hereby
14 certify:
15 That the foregoing pages 4965 through 5155
16 contain a true and correct transcript of the
17 proceedings had in the within and above-entitled
18 matter as by me taken down in shorthand writing
at
19 said proceedings on April 5, 2005, and thereafte
r

20 reduced to typewriting by computer-aided

21 transcription under my direction.
22 DATED: Santa Maria, California,
23 April 5, 2005.
24
25
26
27 MICHELE MATTSON McNEIL, RPR, CRR, CSR #3304
28 5156