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Gas Turbine Exhaust Temperature Control Curve

Can somebody please explain how to determine Gas Turbine Exhaust Temperature Control Settings.

 This description is for GE-design heavy duty gas turbines, and does not purport to cover aero-derivative units
or turbines produced by any other manufacturer.

GE uses a very detailed and complex computer program to calculate the compressor discharge pressure-biased
exhaust temperature control curve that represents a constant firing temperature (the temperature of the combustion
gases entering/exiting the first stage turbine nozzles). Because it's the firing temperature that's really being
controlled by the exhaust temperature control curve. And the firing temperature represents the combustion gas
temperatures that are being experienced by the hot gas path components (combustion liners, transition pieces,
turbine nozzles, turbine buckets, exhaust components). So, it's important to limit and control this temperature to
maximize parts life while still producing as much power as possible.

The calculations include things like the expected pressure drop across the inlet air filters, the expected pressure
drop due to the configuration and length of the inlet air duct, the expected pressure drop of the exhaust duct and
any HRSG (Heat Recovery Steam Generator, or "boiler") connected to the exhaust, the height and configuration of
the exhaust stack, the site elevation above sea level, the expected minimum and maximum ambient temperatures,
the expected minimum and maximum humidity, the type of coatings used on the hot gas path components (if any),
the design of the hot gas path components, the types of seals used the turbine buckets, the types of seals used on the
turbine rotor. It's a very long list of information which must be assembled and input to the program.

All of the above are just for a conventional combustor-equipped unit *without* any kind of NOx emissions
reduction (water injection, for example, or Dry Low NOx combustors, etc.). And, if the unit uses any kind of inlet
cooling that must also be factored into the calculation.

The data which is used by the program has been gathered over decades and includes the results of many new unit
performance tests during that time as well as laboratory data. The program is usually run over the course of several
hours, sometimes days, to cover various operating conditions.

And, it's my personal belief (because I don't know exactly how the program works and why) that all of this is
necessary because the parameter which is ultimately being controlled (the firing temperature, the temperature of
the combustion gases entering/exiting the first stage turbine nozzles) is not measured. It's just empirical data that's
used to set up the relationship of compressor discharge pressure to exhaust temperature for a given firing
temperature.

Why do all of this? To maximize the life of the hot gas path parts while maximizing the power output of the turbine
under normal operating conditions. (The operating conditions we're talking about are inlet pressure drops, ambient
pressure changes normally experienced, ambient temperature changes normally experienced, compressor
degradation due to fouling, etc.)

Sure, a number (or numbers) could be chosen that approximates a constant firing temperature or does not allow the
firing temperature to exceed a certain value under "extreme" conditions, but at other times (most of the time,
actually) the unit would be not be producing as much power as it was capable of if the firing temperature was not
optimized. The parts would last longer, but the overall efficiency would be lower and the power output would
generally be lower.

Or, a set of numbers could be chosen that averages the firing temperature over various operating conditions, but
that would mean that under some conditions the power output would be a little lower than optimal and under other
conditions the power output would be higher than optimal. This would probably result in a reduction of the hot gas
path parts life as opposed to maintaining a constant firing temperature regardless of operating conditions.

So, it's really not a simple process for GE-design heavy duty gas turbines, and I would suspect it's a similar process
or procedure for other turbine manufacturers as well. I've seen some third-party firms that have "reverse-
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engineered" parameters from the published documentation provided with the original turbines, but one would
have to believe that process is more or less an approximation.

I just noted (because we can't see the information until we reply to a thread) that you have checked 'Siemens' as the
vendor when you posted your question. I would presume you were referring to Siemens turbines, so all of the
above may not be applicable, but one would think they have something of a similar process as well.
 Thanks for your very informative explanation about our topic.

Just to add to our discussion, I am talking about Siemens Westinghouse units. Actually we have 2 identical gas
turbines operating with water injection for NOX control and Wet Compression for power augmentation.

We have a dry exhaust temperature control curve and with the operation of water injection and Wet Compression, a
temperature bias is being added to the dry curve which corresponds to the amount of additional water flows (i.e.
dry exhaust temp limit + Water injection bias + Wet Compression bias). Two units have identical exhaust
temperature control settings, however one unit operates with 4~5MW higher output than the other unit.

One thing that puzzles me is that the unit with higher load has lower comp discharge pressure (by approx 0.3 bar)
compared to the other unit with lower MW output (comp inlet pressures are almost same. Should identical gas
turbines operating side by side requires identical exhaust temp control settings or individual settings can be
changed according to actual operational dynamics.

Spread exhaust temp trip for GE Gas turbine

In our frame-6 GE gas turbine controlled by TMR Mark-V Control system, we got a trip signal on "HIGH
EXHAUST TEMPERATURE SPREAD TRIP" Drop # 160.

We have 18 thermocouples. I do not know why this trip although the difference between higher and 3 lowest
exhaust temp. is not exceeding 25C. we have 2 TC with up normal reading from long time (-83C) which I think
should not enter into calculation and should be excluded by the system.

If now we have these 2 TCs NOs 4 & 18 reading is -83. Do this value exclude from calculations or not and what
are the maximum numbers of TCs that can be excluded??

How I can calculate TTXSPL value???

 Also Please find the exhaust temp. before, during, and after the trip:

TTXD1_1 TTXD1_2 TTXD1_3 TTXD1_4 TTXD1_5 TTXD1_6 TTXD1_7 TTXD1_8 TTXD1_9 TTXD1_10
TTXD1_11 TTXD1_12 TTXD1_13 TTXD1_14 TTXD1_15 TTXD1_16 TTXD1_17 TTXD1_18
____________________________________________________________________________________________
________________
533 537 534 -83 556 534 550 544 554 554 546 550 555 545 543 537 539 -83 (at 10:57:49.000) before the trip, O/P
Power = 30MW
____________________________________________________________________________________________
________________
533 536 535 -83 555 534 550 544 553 554 546 550 555 545 543 536 539 -83 (at 10:57:50.000) during the trip, O/P
Power = 0MW
____________________________________________________________________________________________
________________
480 455 399 -83 503 499 488 460 469 488 488 504 494 470 461 455 458 491 (at 10:57:51.000) after the trip, O/P
Power =0MW
 So, what makes you "... think [the two failed exhaust T/C readings] should not enter into calculation and should
be excluded by the system...."? Is this something you read in a manual, or the way you interpreted the
Combustion Monitor algorithm in the CSP?

The Combustion Monitor block, usually TTXSPVn, checks for two "conditions": the magnitude of the spreads
(TTXSP1, TTXSP2, and TTXSP3), and the adjacency of the highest and lowest readings. When the magnitude of
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the spreads exceeds certain parameters <b>and</b> the outlying T/C readings are adjacent to each other, then--
and only then--will a trip be initiated.

MANY people confuse the Combustion Monitor algorithm with the Exhaust Temperature Feedback and Protection
Algorithm (usually TTXMVn). The latter rejects all T/Cs less than a certain value, and then excludes the highest
and the lowest values from the remaining T/C values <i>when calculating the "median" exhaust temperature,
TTXM</i> which is not used in the spread determination.

To calculate thee TTXSPL value, you need to use the CSP along with the Control Constant values used by the
TTXSPVn algorithm in the CSP in your unit. Note that TTXSPL is a function of axial compressor discharge
temperature, so good working CDTAn T/Cs are also very important (which many sites neglect, as well).

By the way, running with two failed T/Cs is just asking for trouble. Most sites jumper (which can be kind of
dangerous, also) a good, working exhaust T/C to a failed one. But it shouldn't just be any working exhaust T/C, but
one from the either side of the failed T/C selected in order to maintain a more proper profile for the Combustion
Monitor.
 Can you please explain in a simplified way to quick understand.
we have same issues at our site, but i was confused to get how TTXSPL was calculated.
 Without being able to use the figure from the CSP/application code running in the Speedtronic turbine control
panel at your site it's very difficult to explain easily.

However, if you can find the signal TTXSPL and where the signal is "written to" you should be able to work
backwards from that point.

It should be noted, that I have NEVER found the calculation of TTXSPL to be wrong--except when the axial
compressor discharge temperature thermocouples aren't working properly.

In general, TTXSPL is a calculated value, with an upper limt, and I believe most algorithms in use in GE
Speedtronic turbine control panels use the axial compressor discharge temperature thermocouple readings
prominently in the calculation. A lot of people mistakenly believe the axial compressor discharge T/Cs are not
important, but they are--and they are even more important when the turbine is equipped with DLN (Dry Low NOx)
combustors.

At any rate, if you would describe the problems you are having we may be able to provide better help. We find,
frequently, that when people ask questions like this they are focused on this one signal or aspect as the cause of
their problem(s) and we find, if more information about the problem(s) are provided that the real cause is
something quite different (not always--but very frequently).

I also find that when people are having exhaust temperature spread problems that they have one or more failed
T/Cs and are really trying to understand how may failed T/Cs they can continuously operate with (usually they
want to run with two or more failed T/Cs ...).

Finally, it's worth noting that most exhaust T/C spreads are real--that is, they are not caused by that mystical,
magical, complicated Speedtronic turbine control system with all those wires and LEDs and alarms (<b>SO
MANY</b> alarms). People want to believe that after months or years, or even decades, of trouble-free operation
that suddenly and without any indication (that anyone is paying attention to) that the allowable exhaust temperature
spread and the Combustion Monitor algorithm has decided to cause problems. According to the Mechanical
Department, it simply can't be a mechanical problem--which it almost always is (a mechanical problem).

Sure, it's good to make sure the exhaust thermocouples are installed properly and are wired properly and aren't
failing because of high heat and old T/C terminal boards and incorrectly connected T/C wiring. But, in the end,
what's usually discovered--after a <b>LOT</b> of wasted effort trying to prove the problem is that darned
Speedtronic turbine control panel--that the problem is mechanical, real combustion trouble. Usually by the time
that realization is arrived at the turbine has tripped and/or won't run or has suffered catastrophic problems--which,
in the end, are (mistakenly) attributed to the Speedtronic because if that darned Speedtronic had been working
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correctly the damage would not have occurred. (Never mind that operators and Operations Supervisors are under
extreme pressure to keep the unit running, and the mechanical people don't want to tell Operations the unit needs to
be shut down to check the combustion system.)

Anyway, help us help you by telling us the problem(s) you are experiencing, when the problem(s) started (MOST
important!), and what you've done to troubleshoot the problem(s) and what the results of the troubleshooting were.
Also, if you can tell us what fuel the unit is operating on, what Process- and Diagnostic Alarms are active on the
operator interface we can provide the best assistance in the shortest period of time.

If you have a Mark V Speedtronic turbine control panel, there is a description of how to "read" and interpret the
CSP and Big Blocks in the back of the Mark V Application Manual, GEH-6195, in one of the Appendices. (I don't
have access to any Mark V documents at this writing, so it might be in the back of the Mark V Maintenance
Manual, GEH-5980. But it's in the back of one of them.) It's not too difficult, really; it just takes a little practice.
 If by "...we have same issues at our site...." you mean you have two or more failed T/Cs and are asking,
essentially, how many failed T/Cs you can run with, the answer is essentially: two (2). When a third T/C goes
"low" that's enough to trigger one of the exhaust temperature spread conditions and result in a trip.

The problem is not TTXSPL (the allowable spread), because the Combustion Monitor function doesn't trip solely
on the magnitude of difference between the highest and the lowest. (And to be clear, NO exhaust T/Cs are excluded
from the Combustion Monitor function--only the median exhaust temperature calculation.) The difference has to
exceed some values, determined by a couple of Control Constants, <b>AND</b> the highest and lowest T/Cs have
to be adjacent--or as happens when a third exhaust T/C fails low, a trip will occur.
 Can you also explain that if a TC is failed (bad), does it get excluded from spread calculation (TTXD1n &
TTXD2n)? I know that if a TC is failed then it gets excluded from TTXM (Average exhaust temperature). but
my main query is does the failed TC also gets excluded from spread calculations or does it's value just get
replaced by zero value so that it would become the lowest TC? Please clarify.

You have 3 Spreads, TTXSP1/2/3. SP1 is difference between highest and lowest TC, SP2 is difference between
highest and 2nd lowest and SP3 is difference between highest and 3rd lowest. So the failed TC should not show up
in SP2 & 3.

A. Exhaust Thermocouple Trouble Alarm (L30SPTA)

If any thermocouple value causes the largest spread to exceed a constant (usually 5 times the allowable speed) a
thermocouple alarm (L30SPTA) is produced. If this alarm persists for four seconds, the alarm will latch and the
alarm message "EXHAUST THERMOCOUPLE TROUBLE" will be displayed and remain on until acknowledged
and reset.

B. Combustion Trouble Alarm (L30SPA)

A combustion alarm can occur if a thermocouple value causes the largest spread to exceed a constant (usually the
allowable spread). If this alarm persists for three seconds, the alarm will latch and the "COMBUSTION
TROUBLE" message will be displayed and remain on until it acknowledged and reset.

C. High Exhaust Temp Spread Trip (L30SPT)

A high exhaust temperature spread trip can occur if a combustion trouble exists and the second largest spread
exceeds 0.8 times the allowable spread and the first and second lowest thermocouples are adjacent or if an exhaust
thermocouple trouble exists and the second largest spread exceeds 0.8 times the allowable spread and the second
and third lowest thermocouples are adjacent or if the third spread exceeds 0.8 times the allowable spread or if a
combustion trouble exists and a controller failure occurs. If any of these conditions exist for 9 seconds, the trip will
latch and "HIGH EXHAUST TEMP SPREAD TRIP" message will be displayed. The turbine will be tripped
through the master protective circuit. The alarm and trip signals will be displayed until they are acknowledged and
reset.

 You are the best Mr. glenmorangie.

thank you very much

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 following information about 7Fa machine i hope it will be helpful for you...

The purpose of the combustion monitor is to reduce the likelihood of extended damage to the GT if the combustion
system deteriorates. The monitor does this by examining the temperature control system exhaust temperature
thermocouples and compressor discharge temperature thermocouples.

Three spreads are calculated from the exhaust thermocouple readings:

TTXSP1 (S1)= The difference between the 2nd highest and the
lowest thermocouple reading.
TTXSP2 (S2)= The difference between the 2nd highest and the
2nd lowest thermocouple reading.
TTXSP3 (S3)= The difference between the 2nd highest and the 3rd
lowest thermocouple reading.
The allowable spread is the sum of two values:
a nominal allowable spread and a bias.
TTXSPL-Z1= (0.145 TTXM- 0.08*CTDA + TTKSPL5) deg F
TTXSPL= allowable spread CTDA = compressor discharge temperature
TTXM = exhaust temperature TTKSPL5 = exhaust temp.offset (60 sec)

Nominal allowable spread:

It is the steady state spread limit. It varies, typically, between 50 and 170°F. ( for F class machine)

Bias value:
It is an added to the nominal allowable spread, which accounts for the temporary increase in actual spreads that
occur during transient operational periods. It is a temperature value which varies b/w 0 - 100F (typically, 100 to
200° F).

When a transient operational condition occurs, such as a rapid change in load, the bias value steps to 100 degrees F.

It remains at that value until 15 seconds (typically, 15 to 60 seconds) after the transient condition ends. Its value
then decays exponentially to O F on a time constant of 30 seconds (typically, 30 to 100 seconds).

Gas Turbine Exhaust temperature V/S load

I am working in GE7FA gas turbine. GT at part load operation exhaust temperature is maintaining high-650
deg.C though the IGV contains huge cushioning. What could be the reason to maintain the high exhaust
temperature at part load condition other than the consideration of improvement of part load efficiency?

 Does the GE 7FA have conventional or DLN combustors?

 >Does the GE 7FA have conventional or DLN combustors? <

GE 7FA machine with DLN 2.6

 I would suggest that you need to study the available documentation on how the DLN combustion system on
your turbine works.

The Inlet Bleed Heat system in conjunction with the Inlet Guide Vanes are used to control the air flow through the
turbine, like the throttle plate of a carburetor or a fuel injection manifold. It's necessary to limit air flow to prevent
leaning the air/fuel mixture too much which will cause instability and combustion problems.

The problem with using the Inlet Guide Vanes to control (limit) air flow is that it causes the exhaust temperature to
go up (less air for the same fuel means higher exhaust temperatures).

So, on machines with DLN combustion systems, the exhaust temperatures will usually always be very high during
most of the load range, not like a machine with conventional combustors.
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But, do find the available documentation provided with the unit; it will have a lot of good, basic information. And
not just on the combustion system!
 Normally in the gas turbine part load operation, maintain the load by regulate the fuel control valves, but
exhaust temperature is controlled by the IGV. If GT is under base load operation i.e. IGV is in full open
condition, maintain the GT exhaust temperature only on the Fuel gas control valves. Based on the corrected
exhaust temperature reference set point (TTRX) the Fuel gas control valve will regulate to maintain the GT
exhaust temperature(TTXM) irrespective of the load.- there is no option to control the exhaust temperature in
this condition except fuel gas control. At part load operation IGV will modulate with co-ordination of IBH to
keep Pre-mix operation into service below the 80% of the Compressor load also for DLN.

My question is, even though we are having lot of cushioning in IGV to reduce the exhaust temperature of Gas
turbine at part load, Why we are maintaining high exhaust temperature at part load operation as compare to the
base load operation.

waiting here for your immediate reply

regards
 Units with conventional combustors not operating in IGV exhaust temp control at Part Load (below Base Load)
MAY have the IGVs full open at some part load conditions. This is usually for simple cycle machines not
wanting to maximize exhaust temperature to maximize steam production at gas turbine part load. On such units,
at part load operation with the IGVs full open, there is no "exhaust temperature control"; just Droop Speed
Control. Exhaust temperature control doesn't kick in until Base Load.

DLN combustion control is very different from convention combustion control. Because in DLN combustion the
air/fuel mixture is very lean at all times, and because the axial compressor is rotating at a constant speed, the only
"adjustment" for controlling air flow as fuel flow is changed is the IGVs (and in some circumstances), the IBH
system. IBH is usually the means by which premix operation is extended versus units without IBH (which is
usually called "turndown"), but I believe that all F-class machines use IBH so they all operate more or less
similarly in this respect (turndown).

DLN combustors, by virtue of their design (with no "moving parts" to control air flow), must have some other
means of controlling air flow (the IGVs) to prevent excessively leaning-out the air-fuel mixture at part load if the
IGVs were wide open at part load. An effect of closing the IGVs to limit the air flow is that for the same fuel flow
the exhaust temperature will be higher (no cooling or dilution effects from higher air flow).

The design of the DLN combustor is such that at Base Load with the IGVs full open, the flame stability is at it's
best, and the air/fuel mixture is optimized and is very lean to keep NOx emissions very low. If the IGVs were left
open as fuel was reduced, the air flow would stay relatively high and the air/fuel mixture would become even more
lean, which would reduce the flame stability, increase dynamic pressures in the combustion cans, and negatively
impact emissions. If the air/fuel mixture leans out too much, the unit will be tripped.

So, the IGVs, as the only method of controlling air flow while the compressor is operating at a constant speed, are
used to reduce air flow as fuel is reduced. And the effect of that is to increase exhaust temperature above what
would experienced if the IGVs are left full open.

Conventional combustors have a much more stable flame, and a higher range of air/fuel possible air/fuel ratios.
 The primary purpose of the Inlet Bleed Heat is to keep the compressor out of surge (pulsation).

Inlet guide vanes are also used for this purpose during startup. Once the unit is up to operating speed there are 2
types of control for the IGV's:

1. Simple cycle applications: The IGV's open early in the loading cycle and stay open. This minimizes exhaust
temperature for part loads. DLN may have some impact on this, but once the unit reaches emission compliance
mode, the guide vanes should go full open.
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2. Combined cycle applications: The IGV's are modulated to maximize exhaust temperature to improve combined
cycle performance (maximizes steam temperature and keeps it relatively constant over a large load range).
 Is your GT open cycle or connected with Waste Heat Recovery Boiler?

The exhaust Gas temperature will be maintained at higher side for maintaining the required steam temperature at
part load of GT.
 Basically GT was introduced to operate for peak load i.e. designed a gas turbine for frequency response
reserve. When ever the frequency drops, standby GT's will come into picture to maintain the frequency.

Gas turbine work ratio(Net work output ratio is based on the Turbine inlet temperature which is equal to the
maximum cycle temperature. when ever the turbine inlet temperature is high, Net work ratio also high. This is
possible only to maintain the maximum turbine inlet temperature by maintaining higher turbine exhaust
temperature with reference to Brayton cycle process 3 to 4)

So, If we are maintaining lesser exhaust temperature in the part load leads to reduce the efficiency.

As per your explanation GT exhaust temperature is high for combined cycle plant to maintain the sufficient heat
input to the HRSG. But If we reduce the exhaust temperature by increase the mass flow of GT(More opening of
IGV) which will source to the HRSG will increase with out effect the thermal shock(At higher quantity of mass
flow of flue gas with lesser temperature, more quantity of steam will generate which is useful to create the more
cooling media in the boiler vessels.

and also due to higher mass flow of air, compressor power consumption will increase and net work out put will
drop. So, to maintain the constant load at any condition, fuel gas input will increase.

Irrespective of load, always design consideration like GT exhaust pressure, temperature and surge protections will
consider for operation of IGV.

Basically Inlet Bleed heat is designed to avoid the anti icing and keep Pre-mix into service at lower compressor
loadings. Normally two types of combustions- Diffusion and Pre-Mix.

If we keep in the diffusion combustion, combustion temeperature will be high due to rich combustion for initiating
strong flame. Once 80% of load reaches it will convert to pre-mix combustion which is lean combustion.
Rich combustion leads to increase the NOx. So to keep the Pre-mix into service at lower loads also by increase the
compressor loading by increase the compressor inlet temperature.If the load is increasing corresponding IBH flow
will reduce.
 You don't ask very many questions. And, your statements are kind of confusing. It's not clear if you're asking
for confirmation of your understanding or if you're making statements about gas turbine operation.

GE-design Inlet Bleed Heating (IBH) was originally designed for anti-icing (but, I'd be willing to bet that you have
no need for anti-icing at your plant).

Just because a unit has IBH <b>does not</b> mean it is used as an anti-icing function, which requires more
equipment and control system functionality than an IBH system used for DLN combustor-equipped machines does.
It's been said before on control.com: GE generally doesn't recommend anti-icing controls for their heavy duty gas
turbines unless there is an un-natural source of humidity that can be drawn into the axial compressor (turbine) inlet
at low ambient conditions.

Just as otised said: On a unit equipped with DLN combustors IBH is used in conjunction with operating IGVs at
less than "normal" axial compressor design conditions to prevent axial compressor damage.

When the designers of the DLN combustion system had a need for recirculating a portion of the axial compressor
discharge air they initially used an IBH system design. Unfortunately, the name of the system was never changed
to reflect the new usage, even though the physical system has evolved over the years to something much more than
the anti-icing system it was initially.
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It's important to remember: DLN combustion was applied to existing turbine, and axial compressor, designs and
the IGVs were not usually designed to operate at angles less than approximately 57 degrees.

As noted previously, it's necessary to reduce the air flow through the turbine to maintain a proper air/fuel ratio that
is already very lean at low fuel flows (loads). (Remember, the axial compressor is spinning at a constant speed
which can't be varied.)

So, the only way to reduce air flow is to reduce the IGV angles below axial compressor design conditions, and to
do so without causing axial compressor damage the IBH system is used to recirculate a portion of the compressor
discharge back into the axial compressor inlet which serves to heat the inlet air which serves to reduce the density
of inlet air which serves to provide some additional safety margin at low IGV angles. Lower density of air
decreases the work done by the compressor.

The points at which "full" premix operation is achieved differ depending on the turbine and it's equipment and the
version of DLN combustion (DLN-I, DLN-2.0, DLN-2.6, and DLN-2.6e, etc.). But for most DLN-I equipped units
operating without IBH (or without IBH being active), the transition from diffusion flame to premix operation
typically occurs at about 80% of rated output.

Good luck with your understanding. If you have specific questions, please phrase them in the form of a question.
 My machine(GE7FA) was designed to operate the anti icing. Why because my Reference site conditions(RSC)
are- 1.01325bar ambient pressure, 46 Deg.C temp and 100% RH.

At the time of winter it is coming below the 2 Deg.C and 30%RH. Normally below the 7.2 Deg. C of compressor
inlet temperature my evoporative cooling system will trip.(As per the normal criteria less than 42Deg. F not
allowed)

In the winter condition, irrespective of load condition IBH will come into picture to maintain the compressor inlet
temperature.

Thank u for your explanation but still I am having doubt on your explanation i.e.

1. IBH only for Anti-icing?

2. what is the suitable condition(80% rated output normally required to keep Pre-mix into service for dual type
combustion machines like diffusion and pre-mix type) for pre mix operation and what is the relation between the
DLN to Pre-mix combustion(pre mix operation NOx levels are Low)?

3. Is it Quantity of air flow requirement(Basically air to fuel ratio is high for gas turbine to create cooling media in
the combustion chamber) for combustion at part load will change by keeping 5% recirculation?

4. By increase the inlet temperature due to IBH, compressor outlet temperature also change i.e. cooling media(air)
to the combustion chamber with high temperature. So, how the quantity of air flow will be fixed at different
compressor inlet temperature conditions?

 Questions. This is better; thank you.

Please understand, there are many aspects to the questions you are asking. A former colleague of mine was always
heard to say, "Engineering is a series of compromises." That's a very simple, powerful and true statement. The
compromises include physical principles as well as economic considerations.

A lot of things have to work together for DLN combustion to produce low emissions reliably. Please also
remember that DLN combustion is an "auxiliary" to gas turbines. By that I mean, that DLN combustion systems
were fitted to turbines that were originally designed for conventional, diffusion flame combustors. So, some
compromises had to be, and were, made.
 9

Before we go any further, I want to be very clear: I am not a combustion engineer or a turbine designer. All of my
understanding has come from years of on-the-job training and listening to conversations and talking with
combustion engineers and turbine designers and reading anything I could get my hands (and eyes) on. Almost none
of this stuff is written any where in one place (IP, Intellectual Property considerations; trade secrets; and all that),
but bits and pieces of it can be found in a lot of diverse and different documents. This makes gaining knowledge
and understanding very difficult.

So, all of the below is based on my understanding, from what limited information was presented in various training
courses, what was gleaned from being involved in some development activities (as a technician!), from just picking
up bits and pieces here and there over the years, and reading anything I could find on the subject. I have not written
anything I have not been told by reputable sources and have to come know and understand, or read in publicly
available documentation or that would be considered to be a trade secret or proprietary information.

1. IBH was initially designed for non-DLN machines and used for anti-icing protection. I'm very confused about
your site and your questions and statements.

On the F-class machines I'm familiar with IBH was only provided for start-up and shutdown compressor protection
because the IGVs were operated below approximately 57 degrees on units with DLN combustors. It's a "benefit"
that IBH can be used for both compressor protection during start-up and shutdown and for anti-icing protection; it
reduces the costs of having two similar systems for two different conditions, as well as the complexity of the
control system.

I would suggest that you refer to the condition whereby the IBH system is being used for anti-icing protection as
'anti-icing', not 'IBH'. In general, IBH is not user-enabled or disabled on F-class units (it can be on some B/E-class
units with DLN-I combustors). So, it's probably going to be enabled during start-up and shutdown and doesn't
require user/operator assistance or input. In that case, I would suggest you refer to the operation of the IBH system
during start-up and shutdown and part load operation as 'compressor protection'.

2. The suitable condition for Pre-mix operation is a function of flame stability, combustor dynamics, and emissions
level. These conditions are simulated in combustion laboratories and each one has an acceptable range. The results
of these tests and development are proprietary.

The challenge (for any manufacturer) is to design a system that can be mass-produced and applied where the
acceptable ranges "overlap" each other so that the flame is stable, the combustor dynamics are acceptably low, and
the emissions meet desired levels. This is a function of the hot gas path components (fuel nozzles, nozzle orifices,
combustors, etc.), the <b>expected</b> fuel characteristics, the site ambient operating conditions, and the fuel
control valves chosen for the application.

The instrumentation used in a combustion lab to determine the proper components and air/fuel flows would make
the cost of a turbine prohibitive (too expensive). There are several companies now offering various packages of
instrumentation and software to monitor gas turbine combustion on a real-time basis and make adjustments while
running. But, these are not required for basic turbine operation and power production.

And, every time one tries to tweak a little more out of a turbine by running it closer and closer to its limits, one
increases the complexity of operation, the cost of maintenance, and, in my personal opinion, reduces the reliability
and even the availability of the turbine. The instrumentation and software is just too expensive and requires a high
amount of maintenance and calibration and adjustment. I question whether the power output gains over the
estimated life of the machine outweigh the increased maintenance costs and outages caused the instrumentation.

In addition there is a steep learning curve for understanding all of the idiosyncracies of operation at this extreme or
that extreme or without this input or that output. It can be very, Very, VERY complex and usually there's only one
or two people on a site who are really knowledgeable about the system and they don't usually share their
knowledge and they quite frequently change jobs because of their experience. So, the sites are left hanging when
the person leaves.
 10

The Speedtronic turbine control system is adequate and sufficient for the purposes of basic turbine operation while
maintaining desired emissions (guarantees) over the expected ambient operating conditions.

I believe that GE is continuing to offer more and more enhancements through the Speedtronic to optimize F-class
turbine operation so as to maximize efficiency over as much of the load range as possible. This requires some very
sophisticated control algorithms and are usually options, not standard features available in a basic unit package.
This would narrow some of the ranges in an effort to improve efficiency.

3. You do make some unusual associations. You seem to be referring to "cooling and dilution" air in a combustor.
In a conventional combustor with a pure diffusion flame, cooling and dilution air is required to reduce the
temperature of the flame to an acceptable level for passing through the turbine nozzles and buckets. This is done by
placing slots and holes in the combustion liner through which a relatively large portion of the axial compressor
discharge air flows to reduce the flame temperature. Some of the compressor discharge enters the combustor near
the fuel nozzle and is used for combustion, and in a conventional combustor the air/fuel mixture is much richer
than in a DLN combustor.

In a DLN combustor, almost all of the air enters the combustion liner through the end of the liner near the fuel
nozzles. This is so that the air/fuel mixture is a lean "as possible". A lean air/fuel mixture burns much cooler
(hence, the reduced NOx formation!), and therefore the combustion gases don't require nearly as much cooling and
dilution air flow as a conventional combustor requires. There are usually very few cooling and dilution slots and
holes in the body of a DLN combustion liner.

But, directing most of the axial compressor discharge air into the area of the combustor where the fuel nozzles are
presents a problem for low load operation (low fuel flows). Premix combustion requires a very lean air/fuel ratio,
and the air flow through the turbine is a function of the IGV angle (primarily). The designs of most F-class
compressors are such that there is a minimum IGV angle below which the compressor operation becomes unstable
and the compressor can suffer catastrophic failure.

However, by recirculating a portion of the axial compressor discharge flow to the compressor inlet the temperature
of the air entering the compressor inlet is increased which reduces the density of the air entering the compressor
(and also reduces the efficiency of the turbine) the compressor protection is improved.

So, the primary purpose of recirculating compressor discharge air through the IBH control valve and into the axial
compressor inlet is to protect the compressor, since cooling of combustion gases/flame temperature isn't as
important because the combustion is occurring at a lower temperature than in a unit with conventional, diffusion
flame combustors. The air flowing into the combustor is a function of the IGV angle. The IGV angle, if too low
without some other method of protecting the compressor, can cause compressor failures. So, the IBH system is
used to protect the compressor at low IGV angles.

4. I don't really understand this question, and I think the answer is in 3, above. The combustors have fixed openings
into which axial compressor air flows. Again, there are acceptable ranges of operation which each turbine is
designed for.
 If the gas turbine is working in combined cycle mode then it is desirable to have high exhaust temp for better
recovery in HRSG for improving combined cycle efficiency.

That is why you have option to run in combined cycle mode and in open cycle mode
Like ReplyReport
 If IGV will open fully at part load condition the inlet air flow will increase and your compressor pressure ratio
will change..

> My question is, even though we are having lot of cushioning in IGV to reduce the exhaust temperature of Gas
> turbine at part load, Why we are maintaining high exhaust temperature at part load operation as compare to the
> base load operation.
 11
 That is only when you are driving your gas turbine in conjunction with an HRSG. So that at low loads (when
you have low exhaust gas mass flow) you can compensate for the low steam production via high exhaust gas
temperatures.
GE Exhaust Spread Trip Logic
What is the exhaust spread trip logic on different GE gas turbines F5, F6, & F9? I am also looking for a trip
matrix.
 Actually, there is virtually no difference in exhaust spread trip logic with one little exception: F-class turbines
look primarily for hot spots while non-F-class turbines look, primarily, for cold spots.

For non-F-class GE heavy duty gas turbines, most combustion problems are the result of insufficient fuel flow to
one or more combustors, or cracked combustion liners or transition pieces or broken hula skirt seals--all of which
result in cold spots in the exhaust. About the only way a hot spot can occur in a non-F-Class gas turbine is if a
liquid fuel flow divider fails and excess liquid fuel flows into one or more combustors.

F-class gas turbines can have combustion problems where fuel is ignited into a diffusion flame in one or more
combustors when it's supposed to be combusted without diffusion flame. Diffusion flame combustion is MUCH
hotter than non-diffusion-flame combustion and so hot spots result. But, the same problems with low fuel flow to
one or more combustor and cracked liners, transition pieces and hula skirt seals can also happen on F-class
turbines. So, they can have both types of combustion problems: hot spots and cold spots more commonly than non-
F-class turbines, which primarily experience only cold spots.

But, as far as the mechanism of detecting an excess exhaust temperature spread--there's virtually no difference in
GE-design heavy duty gas turbine control philosophy. The Speedtronic sorts the exhaust temperatures into an array
from highest to lowest, with another array that lists the location from highest to lowest. The highest and lowest
values are compared to each other, and when they exceed limits and are adjacent, then a trip is initiated. There is an
algorithm, TTXSPVn, which does the sorting and comparison and generates several logic outputs: L60SP1,
L60SP2, L60SP3, L60SP4, L60SP5 and L60SP6. There is then some relay ladder logic that looks at the status of
the logic signals and generates alarms and trips based the logic signals.

If you want to know how a specific turbine detects, alarms and trips based on exhaust temperature spreads you
need to look at the TTXSPVn block, and use the Control Constants passed to the block to determine how the six
logic outputs are toggled, and then look at the rungs that monitor the status of the six logic outputs to annunciate a
combustion trouble alarm and a high exhaust temperature spread trip. For non-F-class turbines they are very similar
(both the Control Constants and the logic rungs), and there are very slight differences for F-class turbines--but the
basics are the same, with the recognition that it's more common for hot spots to develop in F-class turbines as well
as cold spots.

The best thing would be to develop your own trip matrix for the machines you are working on. Sometimes small
differences in Control Constants can result in large differences in operation. But, again--the basics don't change.
The differences between the highest and lowest exhaust thermocouples are compared--and if the highest and lowest
thermocouples are adjacent and the differences exceed setpoint, then alarms and trips are generated. The best way
to understand this is to develop an understanding of the TTXSPVn block and the logic rungs that look at the six
logic outputs of the block.
 but which signals to be forced to inhibit the unit trip or delay the trip until transferring loads to the other turbine
and stopping the turbine for maintenance.
 I sincerely hope no one responds with the signal names you are requesting

Forcing logic to prevent a turbine trip can cause serious damage, personnel injury--and even death(s).

Please reconsider your plans and take safe actions to resolve the issue(s) without forcing logic to keep the unit
running. Even if you know the present condition is an anomaly if you force the logic to keep running and a real
condition does occur the unit would not trip--and the results can be deadly as well as costly.
 Yes, agreed with CSA forcing logic should be avoid as much as possible and before forcing anything we have
to take care all safety issues behind.
 12
During Start - up Gas Turbine Exhaust Temp increasing
We have 2 Mark V frame V gas Turbines @ 20MW running on Naphtha part Load.

During each start-up after firing established from around 3000 rpm gas turbine exhaust temp increased drastically
to 480 Deg C & then came to 280 Deg C for more than 5 min ( nearly 200 Deg C). Sir is it advisable.

& once during start up in diesel engine engaged mode vibration went up to 18mm/Sec for 3 min. Then after some
time it came to normal mode. Now it's running smoothly @ 3 mm/sec. Sir can you clarify my doubt after that much
vibration how unit will run smoothly & what may be the reason behind that?

 During starting and acceleration, the exhaust temperature climbs very high and then as the unit reaches rated
speed the exhaust temperature will decrease greatly. This is a normal characteristic of GE-design heavy duty gas
turbines.

This is because axial compressors are very inefficient (low air flows and pressures) at speeds below rated, so the air
flow through the machine is much less than rated.

If your machine has a Mark V, then you can trend several values during operation. Trend CPD (compressor
discharge pressure), TTXM (average exhaust temperature), FSR (Fuel Stroke Reference), and TNH (actual turbine
speed, in percent). You will notice that CPD is very flat until the unit approaches rated speed, and then it increases
very sharply. As it increases, TTXM will decrease. FSR generally increases as speed increases, and exhaust
temperature usually increases with increased fuel flow, except during acceleration with the axial compressor
flow/pressure is less than normal and when the unit is operating on CPD-biased exhaust temperature control.

If the unit has modulated IGVs, then IGVs will begin to open as the unit is accelerating, and if the unit has
compressor bleed valves (and most do) sometimes they will close at approximately 95% speed. Both of these
actions will also increase air flow and CPD, which will help "depress" the exhaust temperature even though FSR is
increasing.

If you examine the instruction books provided with the units, you should find some graphs which will also show
the same behavior, that during starting and acceleration the exhaust temp will "spike" and then decrease as the unit
is accelerated.

Vibration can be caused by all manner of things, though I'm not familiar with diesel starting means causing high
vibration unless one is doing something abnormal with the diesel starting means (like trying to close the jaw clutch
when the shaft is still rotating). You are likely relating two unrelated events.

Most GE-design heavy duty gas turbines pass through two critical vibration speeds as they accelerate to rated
speed. GE nor the packagers of their turbines publish these critical speeds, but by plotting vibration vs. speed, you
can usually see them as slight spikes as the unit accelerates through the speeds.

Also, L.O. temperature can have a large impact on vibrations during starting. "Cold" L.O. (less than approximately
25 deg C) usually causes high vibration.
 Sir usually LO temp will raise only after recirculation through the bearings only. So during stating generally it
will be less. What should be the temp range?
 Most, but not all, GE-design heavy duty gas turbine L.O. tanks have electric immersion heaters to help with
maintaining the L.O. temperature at a minimum level to support starting. As stated in the previous response, the
desired L.O. temperature for starting a GE-design heavy duty gas turbine is approximately 26 deg C (approx. 80
deg F), to prevent high vibration due to low viscosity oil in the bearings (I think the phenomenon is called "oil
whip" but I may be wrong about that).

If your unit doesn't have a heater and the only way you can increase your L.O. temperature is to circulate the L.O.
by running the Aux. L.O. Pump (either manually or by selecting Cooldown ON), then you should do whatever is
required to ensure the L.O. temperature is approx. 26 deg C before starting, or the unit will likely experience higher
than normal vibrations during starting and acceleration.
 13

Now, an experienced technician will note that the minimum L.O. reservoir temperature for starting (26QN) is 50
deg F, but that is the absolute minimum and it's accepted and expected that high vibration will likely occur if the
unit is started with 10 deg C (50 deg F) L.O. temperature. That's there to prevent catastrophic damage from
occurring by starting with colder L.O., but if it's absolutely necessary to start the unit (emergency condition) and
the L.O. is at least 10 deg C (50 deg F), then the unit can be started, but, again, it is expected and accepted that
there will be higher than normal vibrations if the oil temperature is less than approx. 26 deg C (80 deg F).

A really experienced technician will also note that the setting for the L.O. Tank Immersion Heater "thermostat"
will drop out the heater contactor when the L.O. tank temperature reaches approximately 21 deg C (70 deg F).
That's always been a little problem with the Device Summary setting for that device.
 I think your both queries could be due to following -

1. Exhaust temperature - Going by the start up curve/profile of gas turbines, the exhaust temperature increases after
firing and reaches peak of say 510 deg. cent at some 50 - 52 % of actual speed but upon further acceleration the
exhaust decreases as CPD increases and then during IGV opening and finally at FSNL it reaches a much lower
value, say around 275 degree centigrade

2. Vibrations - You have mentioed of vibrations while the diesel engine was still engaged which means that the
speed was below the de-clutch speed. Did you re-start the machine, after a stoppage and no barring. May be a
temporary bow formation on the hot shaft would have caused this. Or else the oil temperature LTTH1 could be
low. Was there any change in the IGV position noticed i.e. CSGV & CSRGV although they would be following
each other with a very small difference.

You need to be more specific and detailed when posing a question for proper diagnosis
"high exhaust spread"
We are operating two GE frame V MS5001P gas turbines equipped with dual fuel nozzles. The turbines are
currently being operated on Gaseous fuel.

On one of our turbines exhaust spread has increased to 37 degrees Celsius.

What problems can occur if turbine is kept operating with high exhaust spread?

Should we shutdown the turbine if exhaust spread exceeds allowable value?

This turbine has undergone combustion inspection in March. During that activity all fuel nozzles, combustion
liners and crossfire tubes were replaced. Also on this turbine atomizing air compressor has been removed and fuel
nozzles purge air and atomizing air inlets are seal welded.

Can this problem occur because of cracked fuel nozzle cap due to hot gas back flow into atomizing air passage?
 Well, what is value of spread 2 and spread 3?

Whether one thermocouple is reading high or the region is having different readings? If one thermocouple is more
or less then probably thermocouple fault.

take care
 This is not the case of one thermocouple reading low or high. 2ndly the spread is gradually increasing. It looks
as if it is not thermocouple fault.

Any experience sharing regarding whether we should operate the turbine with high exhaust spread (if so then up to
what limit) will be very helpful
 What problems can occur if turbine is kept operating with high exhaust spread?

You ignore the origin of this problem, it can be a serious problem especially it occurs after a combustion inspection
therefore you must pay a special attention to it and don't keep the turbine running with this alarm
 14

> Should we shutdown the turbine if exhaust spread exceeds allowable value?

In the control system code certainly there is a threshold of exhaust temperatures spread which trip the unit once it is
reached

Perform a boroscopic inspection on the nozzles and buckets as soon as possible and verify that all exhaust
thermocouples are reading properly,
 When did this problem start?

After the Main AA Compressor was removed and certain systems were seal-welded.

We don't know where the seal welding was done, nor what kind of back-flow problem might be possible or even
has occurred.

One of the purposes of purge air is to cool the passages it passes through. Now, the cooling has been removed.

We don't know exactly what portion of the fuel nozzle is experiencing the problem.

But one thing we do know: The problem started after the Main AA Compressor was removed and some passages
were blocked by seal welding.

One thing we can't tell you is that you can operate this machine indefinitely in this condition without major harm
being done to hot gas path components. The purpose of monitoring exhaust thermocouple spreads, and the
adjacency of high- and low exhaust T/Cs is to protect the rotating turbine buckets from experiencing rapid
temperature changes each time the bucket passes a combustor which is either flowing too much fuel in relation to
the combustors on either side of it or is not flowing as much fuel as the combustors on either side. This results in
the turbine buckets being heated or cooled for a brief period each time they pass the area where there is an excess
or fuel or deficiency of fuel.

(Spreads can also occur when a crack in a liner or transition piece or combustion liner hula skirt allows excess
compressor discharge air into a combustor, causing a cooler than normal combustion gas flow.)

The rapid thermal cycling of turbine buckets (and wheels) which occurs when there are large spreads will
eventually lead to premature turbine bucket failure, and subsequent catastrophic damage to other buckets, nozzles,
and shroud blocks (and sooner than later if the spreads are large enough).

Someone, preferably someone with some experience, should come to site and review the changes site made when
removing the AA Compressor and seal welding passages and make some determination about whether it was done
properly or not. We can't do that without being able to examine marked-up Piping Schematics (P&IDs) and to see
photographs of the damaged nozzles, and even then we still might not have enough information to make a proper
recommendation.

If you think you will never run liquid fuel again, you should consider having a reputable firm provide you with gas
fuel nozzles without AA- and pure air and liquid fuel components and passages.
 Dear CSA thanks alot for your detailed reply. Fuel nozzles were seal welded at following points
Atomizing air inlet flange
Liquid fuel inlet connection
Purge air inlet connection

Regarding the back flow problem we also believed that seal welding fuel nozzles at above points will cause back
flow of hot gases into atomizing air and liquid fuel passages due to total absence of atomizing air and purge air but
we had to carry out this modification in emergency. However we did consult OEM before carrying out this
modification. They said that with atomizing air inlet, liquid fuel inlet and purge air inlet passages seal welded,
 15
atomizing air and liquid fuel passages will become "death cavities filled with compressor discharge air." We are
unable to understand this comment. Can any one help understand this?

Please note that we do not have any standby power source and therefore shutting down the turbine will cause us
heavy production loss. It will be a great help if some one can advise any value of exhaust spread where turbine
must be shut down
 I don't believe they meant "death cavities"; more likely they meant "dead cavities pressurized with compressor
discharge air".

To my mind, if all of the passages were seal-welded at the flanges on the fuel nozzle there should be no path for
hot combustion gases to flow through. They air trapped in the passages will just be compressed to match
compressor discharge pressure. Any path for hot combustion gases to back-flow through to an area of lower
pressure would likely result in damage to the component/passage. Again, one of the primary purposes of purge air
is also to cool the passages through which it is passing.

Without being able to see the damage to the fuel nozzles which you say has occurred and which seems to be
causing the high exhaust temperature spreads it's very difficult to make any comment on what's causing that. I've
seen some very "dirty" gas fuels (contaminated with various liquid products including lubricating oil (likely from
the compressor(s) being used to compress the gas), hydraulic oil (likely from the hydraulic valve operators), and
even gasoline (don't know how that got into the gas fuel pipeline but it was there!). These contaminants can cause
coking of the nozzles which can lead to damage to fuel nozzle components. But, again, without being able to
physically examine the nozzles it's very difficult to say what's causing the damage.

Now, with respect to what spread you can operate safely at, well, you need to monitor the allowable exhaust
temperature spread (usually signal name TTXSPL) and your three exhaust temperature spreads (TTXSP1,
TTXSP2, & TTXSP3). When the magnitudes of the spreads and adjacency reaches the allowable limit the unit is
going to be tripped. That's the maximum allowable limit.

There are two calculated arrays used in determining when a GE-design heavy duty gas turbine will be tripped on
high exhaust temperature spreads: TTXD2_nn and JXD_nn. The first is a sort of exhaust temperatures from highest
value to lowest value (beginning at 00). The second is a sort of the location of exhaust temperatures from highest
value to lowest value. So, in other words, if the highest exhaust temperature is 489 deg C at location 5, then
TTXD_0 would be equal to 489 and JXD_0 would be equal to 5. If the second highest exhaust temperature value
was 486 deg C at location 4 then TTXD_1 would be equal to 489 and JXD_1 would be equal to 4. Presuming a
total of 13 exhaust T/Cs, if the lowest exhaust temperature value was 402 deg C at location 6, then TTXD2_12
would be equal to 402 and JXD_12 would be equal to 6.

By comparing the various exhaust temperatures and their locations to each other is how the "combustion monitor"
determines when a turbine should be tripped. Generally, it requires the magnitude of the difference between the
highest and the three lowest values AND for the locations to be adjacent (next to each other) for the turbine to be
tripped. This has been covered in detail in other threads on control.com.

But, if you just run the unit until it trips, it won't be the best operating condition for the turbine. But, the
combustion monitor function should protect the turbine--unless you keep re-starting the turbine without attempting
to resolve the problem(s) which caused the spread and keep subjecting the turbine buckets to the cyclical
(approximately 5100 RPM) heating/cooling and keep letting the combustion monitor trip the turbine then
eventually the turbine buckets are going to fail. And then, you will have even bigger problems to deal with, and the
loss of generation will last much longer.

So, it would seem that the OEM has told you there should be no problem to operate the unit without
Atomizing/Purge Air. That would tend to indicate the problems are not related to the lack/loss of Atomizing/Purge
Air. That would suggest the problem is caused by some other factor(s), possibly including contaminants in the gas
fuel.
 16
The OEM should have something called a "swirl angle chart" for the turbine you are operating. By knowing the
IGV angle and the load at which the turbine is being operated and the location of the highest and coldest exhaust
temperatures a swirl angle chart can be used to try to approximate the combustors/nozzles which are causing the
high spread. You could use this information to try replacing those suspect nozzles when the turbine does trip on
high exhaust temperature spread, thereby "buying" yourself more time before the next high spread trip.

But, that's pretty hard on a turbine. Frame 5s are pretty robust machines, though.

This is not a recommendation to do or try anything, nor any kind of warranty or guarantee of suitability for
recommendation for any particular purpose. You should really solve the <b>root cause</b>--which may or may
not be related to the changes to the Atomizing/Purge Air systems.

Write back to let us know how you proceed.

 High spread problem of GE frame 5 gas turbine. We are operating GE frame 5 gas turbines model MS-5001P.
Dual fuel nozzles are installed in turbine but we are operating our turbine on gas fuel. Recently we have removed
the atomizing air compressor due to excessive seal leakage and after OEM consent we have installed welded
plugs on fuel nozzles on atomizing, purge and liquid fuel passages to avoid back flow of combustion gases.

In recent combustion inspection we observed burning and erosion on nozzle cap portion (atomizing air passage).
We have changed all fuel nozzles the installed nozzles leak and flow test were carried out before installation and
found ok.

After combustion inspection exhaust spread was 17 OC at load of 9.0 MW. But spread changed to 27 OC when
load increased to 13 MW. Now a day's exhaust spread was in the range of 31-33 OC at same load of 13.0 MW.
Following are the exhaust thermocouple readings at load of 12.8 MW

TT-XD-1 OC = 416
TT-XD-2 OC = 410
TT-XD-3 OC = 404
TT-XD-4 OC = 412
TT-XD-5 OC = 427
TT-XD-6 OC = 441
TT-XD-7 OC = 431
TT-XD-8 OC = 424
TT-XD-9OC = 413
TT-XD-10 OC = 415
TT-XD-11 OC = 412
TT-XD-12 OC = 428
Average exhaust temperature = 419
Change in spread = 32 OC
MARK-V allowable spread lie above 45 OC
Axial flow compressor discharge pressure = 7.51 kg/cm2
Axial flow compressor discharge temperature = 339 OC

Please suggest whether this change in spread is normal? If abnormal what the outcomes are if we will operate the
turbine on this same spread of 31-33 OC?

As we are familiar that the by blinding of atomizing air passage cooling air was blocked in fuel nozzle but it can't
change the gas flow from gas tip of fuel nozzles to cause change or improper combustion.
 Can we connect atomizing air compressor suction and discharge lines with atomizing air compressor removed
and use original dual fuel nozzles so that compressor discharge air will directly be used for cooling of fuel
nozzles?
 <b>From the information provided,</b> I'm not convinced the "burning" is caused by the lack of purge/cooling
air. I believe that if you try what you've suggested you will most certainly create a path for the back-flow of hot
combustion gases through the AA passages.
 17

As an alternative suggestion, why don't you work with the supplier or refurbisher of your fuel nozzles to identify a
gas fuel-only tip?

In my experience with lack of purge air the damage to the fuel nozzles caused deformation and warping of the AA
"cone" tip which resulted in eventual loss of the tip which, very fortunately, did not result in damage to the first-
stage turbine nozzles or rotating turbine buckets. The warped AA cone tips were not blackened, which is what
seems to be reported at your site (correct us if we are wrong about that impression). If there is burning (which I
have interpreted to mean blackening and/or black carbon deposits) of the fuel nozzle tips, then I would suggest the
gas fuel has some carbonaceous liquid component that is condensing due to the temperature drop across the gas
fuel nozzle orifices and is burning and leaving deposits that are causing uneven fuel flows and exhaust temperature
spreads.

Or, the dew point of the natural gas is such that there is condensation of liquids which are burning , incompletely,
and leaving black black deposits.

But, again, this has not been confirms and is only the interpretation I have made from the use of the word burning
to describe the damage you have observed on the fuel nozzle tips. (What a difference one word can make!)

If you believe there are hot combustion gases causing the "burning" and NOT contaminants or condensates in the
gas fuel, then I would suggest sourcing and installing gas fuel-only tips on your fuel nozzles instead of the effort
involved with re-piping and most likely creating back-flow passages which would most certainly result in fuel
nozzle, or worse, damage. I've seen AA manifolds glow orange/red from the back-flow and circulation of hot
combustion gases--and it lucky it was found because the manifold piping had already started to deform.

Unless I have misunderstood the problem, I don't believe I can add anything further to this thread--
<b>EXCEPT</b> to ask that you update the thread with your progress and experience as you work to resolve the
problem. it's this kind of feedback which makes these threads on control.com so valuable to readers--now and in
the future. Thanks in advance for providing valuable feedback!
 Regarding your reply of back flow of combustion gases we have inspected the seal welding of plugs by dye
penetrant test and all the welded plugs of atomizing air passage were found ok.

secondly out of 10 fuel nozzles we have observed that 03 nozzles have heavy material loss of AA nozzle cap while
the rest have minor burning on AA Nozzle cap.

while no damage was observed on gas tip/swirl tip of fuel nozzles however slight deposition of burned liquid was
present inside the gas tip but it was only found on 02 nozzles of chamber#5 &6. but the deposition was not of such
that it would blocked the gas tip holes and caused high spread.

can we improve the material of AA nozzle cap as existing nozzle cap material is SS 420 as i have visited on site
where frame 9 turbine is in operation with same modification and there is no such problem as there material is
HESTALLOY.

as gas fuel is flowing from separate passage from fuel nozzle and came out from gas tip then by burning of AA
nozzle cap there should be no problem with spread.

can you give some opinion that why burning of AA nozzle cap causing high spread?
 It would appear that the OEM who told you this was possible was at least partially incorrect.

The only reason I can offer for the damage you are seeing is that the temperatures in the area of the AA cone tip are
just too high. Is it that there is no air ("purge") air flowing through the AA passages serving not only to cool the
AA passage components and the AA cone tip, or that the flow-rate of the air serves to move the gas fuel flame
"ball" a little further from the fuel nozzle and AA cone tip? I would guess it's a little of both.
 18
There may be just enough of an opening and some condition that is being set up where hot combustion gases are
circulating into and out of the AA passage of the nozzle tip. This doesn't seem likely, but somehow heat is causing
warping which is causing more problems leading to high spreads. And, again, this problem seems to have started
after the AA compressor was removed.

Unfortunately I don't have access to any fuel nozzle drawings, but if I remember correctly the gas fuel tip screws
on over the AA cone. What I don't recall is how the gas fuel makes it way to the orifices of the gas fuel tip, if there
is some interference fit of the gas fuel tip around the circumference of the AA tip. If the AA tip deforms and this
interference fit opens then gas fuel would leak out of the gap and possible exacerbate the problem of warping,
deformation, and uneven fuel flows causing the high exhaust temperature spreads. But, without being able to see
the fuel nozzle assembly or the fuel nozzle assembly drawings, I'm just "thinking out loud (digitally!)."

It does seem hot combustion gases are finding their way into the AA passage of the fuel nozzle and causing
elastic/plastic deformation of the AA cone tip. There must be some kind of flow path for this to happen, or as you
suggest, there may be a material difference.

I'm not a materials engineer. I have no knowledge of the heat-resistant properties of either material or the suitability
of either material for the desired application.

I would still say the cheapest and most cost-effective solution would be to obtain a gas fuel-only fuel nozzle
"assembly." This could take one of two forms; the first being an assembly consisting of two parts, a "blind" AA
cone without the hole in the end of it and a gas fuel nozzle tip. The liquid fuel "cartridge" would be completely
removed, the blind AA tip screwed and staked in place, and the gas fuel nozzle tip screwed on and locked in place.

There might also be a single gas fuel nozzle tip which would replace both the liquid fuel cartridge and AA cone.

But, I suspect there may be some differences in gas fuel nozzle orifice angle and/or some difference in the gas fuel
swirl tip that allows more combustion air to help push or keep the gas fuel flame ball a little further away from the
nozzle tip in the absence of purge air flowing through the AA tip when running on gas fuel.

Again, as I said before, there's really nothing I can add to this thread.

The problem started when the AA compressor was removed. The problem appears to be completely related to the
absence of purge air in the AA passage when running on gas fuel. Simply connecting the AA compressor inlet to
the AA compressor outlet will likely not result in a sufficient flow of air through the AA system when running on
gas fuel. In fact, all of the losses of the piping (angles, bends, flanges, etc.) will also contribute to an inability to
flow sufficient air without the AA compressor to prevent backflow of hot combustion gases into the AA system.
You could certainly try it, but I would suggest having a Plan B in the works if more fuel nozzles are damaged in
the process, and to carefully and constantly monitor the AA manifold piping around the compressor case while
running with this workaround. You might consider using one or two T/Cs attached to the AA manifold piping to
monitor manifold temperature.

But, this problem seems to be primarily related to the loss/lack of air flowing through the AA system when running
on gas fuel. The black deposits you mentioned at Can 5 could just be the remnants of oil from the failed AA
compressor seals.

There is one last thing you might try since you have welders there. Try welding a disc to the back of the AA cone
to cover the opening in the AA cone. Make the disc large enough to completely cover the interior diameter of the
AA cone tip (not just the hole in the tip), and seal weld it entirely around the edge. Then also seal weld the outside
of the AA cone tip to the disc, so that hot gases can't get between the tip and the disc.

You would have to remove the liquid fuel "cartridge" to install this home-made gas fuel-only AA cone, then install
the gas fuel tip over that.
 19
The problem with this is that there is still no flow of air through the AA passage when running on gas fuel which
might be helping to push or keep the flame ball a little further away from the nozzle tip. But, since there wouldn't
be any opening for hot combustion gases to enter because of the disc welded in place, then it might be just enough
to work.

And I'm wondering if part of the problem might also be incorrect assembly technique, such as not torquing the AA
tip sufficiently before staking it in place, and then not sufficiently torquing the gas fuel tip before deforming the
locking ring.

I would suggest a good plan would be to work with the OEM or your supplier of new or refurbished fuel nozzle
components to find a gas fuel only tip, and to examine the tip next to one for a dual fuel machine to note the
differences.

All of my fuel nozzle suggestions are based on limited experience working with dual fuel nozzles on machines
built since the early 1980s. If your nozzles aren't like the ones I've had experience with (and there are LOTS of fuel
nozzles I haven't had experience with!) then you will need to use the drawings you have along with the site
experience you have to decide how to proceed.

This is not a controls-related problem. I've already spent more time on this than I should have.

Please write back to let us know how you proceed and how you resolve the problem, even if it's a couple of months
or more from now.
 Thanks CSA for your comments
i am agree with your comment of fuel flame "ball" that without the absence of purge air the flame "ball" is
somewhat near to the AA nozzle cap and this will be the cause of burning of AA nozzle cap. secondly we have also
removed the AA Compressor from accessory gear box and we after seal welding of fuel nozzle atomizng,liquid and
purge air passage no temperature or sign of deformation has been observed on the AA piping.

regarding gas fuel way to gas tip

i want to add that there is no interface fit between the AA CAP and gas tip/swirl tip. but the gas moves form
outside diameter of AA cap and then enter to the gas tip holes. although there is some clearance between the two
components after installation them on the fuel nozzle. i think when burning and erosion of AA cap increased its
hole will also increased so the hot gases then will interept <b><i>(moderator's note:</b> interrupt or intercept)</i>
the gas fuel flow and this will cause the high spread.

secondly we have suggested a change in design and material of AA cap in which we have machined the cap
without hole (passage for Atomizing air) but this is under consultation with OEM. This modification will prevent
the combustion gases to back flow but also by using high temperature material it will prevent burning of AA cap.
As i have visited a site in which frame 5 gas turbine is operating with by changing the material of AA cap with
high temp. material.

while all the parts during reclamation of nozzles including gas tip AA CAP are torqued as per OEM provided
torque.
 Why you decided to remove the air compressor?
Why you decided not to rectify the air compressor leaking seal(s)? Since the oil leaks to air side and being carry-
over to the combustors?
Gas Turbine Exhaust Pressure
 Please i would to someone to give and cover or explanation Gas Turbine Exhaust Pressure.

i have gas turbine frame 5 mark VI heavy duty gas turbine. the Exhaust Pressure 96EA reading the pressure
negative?
 The reading should be positive, at least any time the unit is running. (If shut down, and there is wind blowing
across the top of the stack, you might get a small negative reading.)
 20
You don't say what, if any, equipment is in the exhaust system. If you have heat recovery equipment like an
HRSG, the exhaust back pressure might be 20 inches (50 cm) of water or more. If you have silencers, maybe 6 to 8
inches (15 to 20 cm) of water.

The transmitter is measuring the gauge pressure just downstream of the exhaust plenum.

So if it is reading negative, and the transmitter is good, then you likely have the transmitter incorrectly tubed up or
maybe an isolation valve is closed.
Need to more explanation please ..
what time the pressure become negative or positive ?
 Gas Turbine Normal operating condition, exhaust gauge pressure in the terms of +ve only. So, positive draft is
provided by the Gas turbine and flue gas will sweep out by the natural draft system (Stack).

Same thing if you compare with the conventional boiler, Air will supply to the furnace by the Forced draft fan and
Combustible gases carry out by the Induced draft fan through stack (draft creation is the sum of the fan and stack),
this arrangement called- Balanced draft system. Normally Induced draft fan capacity (Power consumption) is 1.5
times of the forced draft(Supply air fan) capacity. The capacity of the Induced draft fan is based on the amount of
flue gas flow to be handled by the fan as well as the temperature of the flue gas at the suction of the ID (Induced
draft) fan.

Amount of flue gas flow is sum of mass flow of air and fuel. So, amount of flue gas flow is based on the air to fuel
ratio. Air to fuel ratio with conventional boiler (coal fired) is vary from 7:1 to 12:1.

But in the case of Gas turbine Air to fuel ratio vary from 40:1 to 60:1. So, amount of flue gas flow to the stack is
very high for a kg of fuel combustion in the Gas turbine. To carry out this total flue gas by using an external fan
will consume very very huge power. So, Natural draft (Stack) is using to carry the flue gases by maintaining the
high stack height. Natural draft is based on the height of the stack.

More stack height also not possible Due to withstanding/constructional problem, one compromise need to maintain
balanced draft by providing the positive pressure at the gas turbine exhaust (At what location in the Flue gas path
in the HRSG contains -ve pressure of the flue gas-need to be checked. But at any load condition -ve pressure is not
possible at the gas turbine exhaust due to lower quantity of flue gas flow also).

Both conventional boiler and HRSG exhaust temperatures will be the same at stack inlet. So, main difference will
be the amount of flue gas handle by the stack due to high air to fuel ratio with gas turbine due to high calorific
value.

So, At gas turbine normal operation, Exhaust flue gas pressure (gauge) is always positive.

If gas turbine not in service- IGV min.opening for GE-7FA is 25Deg, due to this opening exhaust flow always will
maintain 14kg/sec unless stack damper close. If the stack damper is in open condition Stack will create more -ve
pressure at the Gas turbine exhaust due to lower quantity of air flow (14kg/sec at stand still and 440 kg/sec at base
load) through the Gas turbine compressor.

I don't know at what condition you observed the -ve pressure at the exhaust of the gas turbine.

If the gas turbine exhaust pressure -ve at the time of normal operating condition, suspect the transmitter (why
because at any load condition -ve pressure is not possible at the gas turbine exhaust due to lower quantity of flue
gas flow also).

More than the design expansion in the gas turbine- simply impossible.
 Whenever the gas turbine is rotating (in the correct direction) the measured exhaust pressure should be positive.
The air is flowing from the GT exhaust plenum up the stack to the atmosphere; therefore the pressure at the
exhaust plenum must be positive. Otherwise the air would flow down the stack!
 21
 Still i am convenience with reading please can you tell me which condition that reading become negative or
positive ?

I hope CSA clarify but topic ?

 What part of: "The exhaust back-pressure should be positive unless the gas turbine is rotating in the wrong
direction" don't you understand?

Because that's all everyone has been trying to tell you: It should never be negative. It "might" be negative if there's
a big updraft when the gas turbine is shut down and the HRSG and stack are hot, but it would probably be such a
small negative value that the transducer wouldn't even report it.

I believe if you look at the Device Summary for the unit you will see that the exhaust back pressure transmitter
(usually device 96EA-1) should be calibrated from zero to some positive value, not from a negative value to a
positive value.

So, there's something wrong with the differential pressure transmitter calibration, the tubing connections, or the
type of probe(s) used in the exhaust duct, or the placement of the probe(s) in the exhaust duct, or the location of the
differential pressure transmitter, or the valving to the sensing lines of the differential pressure transmitter.

Usually, these transmitters measuring exhaust duck back-pressure are differential pressure transmitters, with the
low side port "connected" to atmospheric pressure, and the high side port connected to the pressure probe(s) in the
exhaust duct. And, an examination of the piping schematic (P&ID) for the differential pressure transmitter in
question (usually the Performance Monitor Package piping schematic (P&ID)) would also show how, and where,
the differential pressure transmitter should be located in relation to the probe(s) in the exhaust.

There have been other posts on control.com about exhaust duct pressure sensing. Search for "+pancake +probe"
(without the quotes).

But, get real, dude. A gas turbine is going to exhaust to atmosphere at some pressure higher than atmospheric,
because poop flows downhill unless it is pumped uphill. (In other words, flow is always from an area of higher
pressure to an area of lower pressure.)

Use the documentation provided with the turbine to help you understand how the equipment works. The Device
Summary and the piping schematic drawings (P&IDs) are about the most important pieces of documentation
provided with the turbine and have a TON of information.

And, neither are difficult to understand. One is calibration settings, and the other is a graphical representation (and
a pretty simple graphical representation at that) of systems and instrumentation.
 We are operating GE 7FA DLN2.0 Gas turbines, frequently we are facing the problem with negative exhaust
pressure reading. we found the moisture buildup in the sensing line. now we have provided one drain v/v in
sensing line & time to time we are draining it & it works fine!!!!

Relation between cpd and exhaust temperature

 We tested a new fogging system in ge ms6001. When we compare the rated capacity (base load mode) without
fogging system it achieved 31.2 mw, inlet temp 31 oC, exh temp 551 oC, cpd 9.78 bar. with fogging system it
achieved 32.8 mw, inlet temp 24 oC, exh temp 545 oC, cpd 10.05. As u can see from the data, when we use the
fogging system, the cpd will increase and exh temp will decrease so it limits the capacity. Is there any way that
we can increase the rated capacity to more than 32.8 mw?
 Take a look at your Control Specification, if you have one. From there you will see that TTRXB (Base Load
Temp. Control Set-point)is directly related to CPD, this is to linearize the Firing Temp. Sure you got more Mw
when you used the inlet fogging by increasing the CPD, but this increased the cooling effect by the increased
airflow so your Base set-point was slightly reduced. The answer to your question is really No, you cannot get any
more Mw without over firing the machine.
 It doesn't seem right, and yet the originator said that when CPD went up and exhaust temperature went down
that power output increased. Everybody thinks that when Base Load is selected that exhaust temperature should
 22
increase when power increases. But it doesn't. The slope of the exhaust temperature control curve is negative.
As CPD, on the x-axis of the plot, increases the corresponding exhaust temperature, on the y-axis of the plot, will
decrease *for the same firing temperature* which is what the curve represents: a *constant* firing temperature.

If one plotted MW on the x-axis versus exhaust temperature on the y-axis while running at Base Load, the curve
would look just like the Base Load exhaust temperature control curve: it would have a negative slope.

The increased air (mass) flow which occurs with an increase in CPD causes the exhaust temperature to drop while
running at a constant firing temperature, which is what Base Load is. Doesn't seem right, but that's the way it
works! Fuel flow even increases as CPD increases while on Base Load, but exhaust temperature decreases. Doesn't
seem right, but that's the way it works.

I believe what the originator is really saying is: Why didn't the power output increase more with the addition of the
fogger? One would think that the output would have increased more than approximately 5% in a dry ambient when
running the fogger. Is the fogger running properly? Atomization is the key, and too many big drops of water will
not be as effective as a well-atomized spray or fine mist.

Is there a lot of water running out of the inlet drain while the fogger is running? This would most likely indicate
poor atomization or excessive water.

How much did the compressor inlet air temperature drop when the fogger had been running for 30 minutes or so
over the ambient temperature?

What does the fogger manufacturer say? What kind of power increase did they estimate would occur with their
system?

When the unit is running at Base Load, it's already putting out maximum power based on the exhaust temperature
control curve. By fogging, you've increased the mass flow through the unit by cooling the inlet air, which has
allowed a higher fuel flow which has resulted in more power output, even though the exhaust temperature
decreased. Which is what should happen; a decreasing exhaust temperature while running at Base Load does not
mean the power output is limited. It actually means the power output has increased, as you can see from the data.

If you're looking for more power output as a result of the addition of a fogger (more than the 5% you've already
seen), you should ask the fogger manufacturer if there's anything you can do to optimize the system, or if that's the
limit of the fogger's capacity. Many times during the addition of something new like this fogger, there is testing and
tuning and training and more testing and tuning and training before everything is running in top condition. It's not
clear if this data is from the first attempts, or after some period of time when all the kinks have been worked out
and the system is running exactly as it should.

When was the last time the compressor was washed off-line? What is the inlet filter differential pressure (are the
inlet filters clean?)? When was the last maintenance outage on the unit?

Again, what kind of performance increase were you expecting? Did the fogger manufacturer make any kind of
performance guarantee?

But, from the data you provided the control system is working properly. As CPD increased while at Base Load the
power output increased. And, the exhaust temperature decreased just as it should and would be expected to. If
you're not getting the "bang for the buck" that you expected with the new fogger, it's probably not the turbine
control system which is the problem; it seems to be working just as it should.
 Thank you, Mr. Bob, for your explanation, but I'm still confused. Why will decrease on comp inlet temp
increase the CPD? And if anyone has any experience on fogging system, how can the fogging system reduce the
SFC?
 What is fogging?
 23
 I don't think it is the decrease in inlet temp which is increasing the CPD. As the inlet temp decreases it cools
the gas path and allows you to increase fuel flow / load. As the fuel flow increases and more work is done the
combuster pressure increases and this in turn increases CPD.
 If you really want to increase power output, just go with water injection into combustion chamber.

Putting a fogger increases the volumetric efficiency, which means that the saved power at the compressor will get
from output.

Moreover, look for the surge margin of compressor (I am sure it will be considered by the fogger designer).

My opinion only.

 The state you seem to be in most of the time.

 Thank you for all information, but somehow the supplier has made some modification and we can achieved 7%
increase in rated power. Load 33.6 mw, exh temp 544oC, cpd 10.14 bar, comp inlet 23oC.
They just add some nozzle in evaporative section before the silencer.

 Which came first: the chicken or the egg?

The axial compressor is spinning at a constant speed and the IGVs are full open when the unit is at Base Load.
Cooling the inlet air makes the air more dense. More air results in the ability to burn more fuel. More fuel results in
a higher pressure in the combustor, which the axial compressor must overcome because the speed is constant and
the IGVs aren't moving.

So, more air allows more fuel. More fuel results in a higher combustor pressure which results in a higher CPD.

So: Which came first?

 The turbine runs extreeeeemly lean hence the only thing limiting fuel flow is the base load exhaust temp limit.
More air, cooler air or wetter air will all cool exhaust temps and in turn increase power output / fuel flow at base
load.

It was the egg.

GE Gas Turbine IGV angle

Frame 6 Machine with Mark-V. IGV is operating at 57 DGA with TTXM=562 degree C. The IGV moves to 62
DGA and is operating between 59-62DGA. What is the logic. GTG is not operating in Temperature Control mode
 There is 'exhaust temperature control' and there is 'exhaust temperature control.' Which exhaust temperature
control are you referring to?

Most GE-design heavy duty gas turbines have CPD-biased exhaust temperature control (this is what defines Base
Load--and is the maximum allowable exhaust temperature based on operating conditions <b>when the IGVs are at
their maximum operating angle.</b>

And, most GE-design heavy duty gas turbines also have IGV exhaust temperature control--which is the method of
maximizing exhaust temperature at part load (below Base Load) by keeping the IGVs closed as long as possible
which restricts the air flow through the machine and increases the exhaust temperature.

When the unit is being loaded from synchronization and IGV exhaust temperature control is enabled and active the
IGVs will be held closed until TTXM (the average exhaust temperature) gets very close to TTRX (the CPD-biased
exhaust temperature control reference--again: the maximum allowable exhaust temperature for the current
operating condition). So, the IGVs will be held at 57 DGA until TTXM gets very close to TTRX (sometimes,
depending on the vintage of the control algorithm, it will be when TTXM equals TTRX) as load is increased the
exhaust temperature would tend to increase above TTRX--and the IGVs are opened slightly to maintain the
TTXM/TTRX relationship. This is IGV exhaust temperature control.
 24
This continues during loading until the IGVs are fully open, and when TTXM equals TTRX then the unit is said
to be operating on CPD-biased exhaust temperature control. Again, CPD-biased exhaust temperature control only
occurs when the IGVs are fully open--that's part of the definition of Base Load: when the IGVs are fully open
<i>and</i> fuel flow is such that TTXM equals TTRX.

Hope this helps!

Two last things. First, if the turbine you are working on has DLN (Dry Low NOx) combustors, IGV exhaust
temperature control is not operator-selectable; it's always on.

Second, when a GE-design heavy duty gas turbine without DLN combustors is operating with IGV exhaust
temperature control disabled and not active when the exhaust temperature hits 700 or 900 deg F (sorry; I can't
remember which temperature exactly) the IGVs will start opening to maintain that temperature (either 700 or 900
deg F) as the unit is loaded until such time as the IGVs are fully open. The operator interface display will show
"EXHAUST TEMPERATURE CONTROL" during this period. The purpose of this 'exhaust temperature control' is
to limit combustor pressure pulsations during loading (which occurs around 700 or 900 deg F--which I could
remember which, but I can't; sorry). So, really, there's 'exhaust temperature control' and there's 'exhaust
temperature control' and there's 'exhaust temperature control.' (Isn't this fun?)
 I posted it in wrong thread.

As both of IGVs and FSR (right?) have ability to regulate exhaust temperature,how to make sure when the IGVs
are not at maximum operating angle,the exhaust temperature is controlled by IGVs exhaust temperature control not
CPD-biased exhaust temperature control?
 The IGV position reference, CSRGV, is the output of a MAX select block--just like FSR is the output of a
MAX select block.

The IGV temperature control reference is basically the same as the CPD-biased exhaust temperature control
reference. (Some older units had a 5-10 deg F offset, making the IGV exhaust temp control reference slightly
lower. Newer units don't have that offset.)

The reason that CPD-biased exhaust temperature control is used as the IGV exhaust temperature control reference
is that it makes life simpler: The CPD-biased exhaust temperature control reference is being calculated all the time,
and it does represent the maximum allowable exhaust temperature control reference, so using it as the IGV exhaust
temp control reference makes sense.

I don't have access to any Mark VI application code at the moment, but I think the IGV exhaust temp control
reference is called CSRGVX or something like that. When operating on IGV exhaust temp control the IGVs are
modulated (positioned) based on comparing the actual exhaust temperature (TTXM) to the CPD-biased exhaust
temp control reference (TTRX) and either opened or closed to make TTXM equal to TTRX. A lot like how CPD-
biased exhaust temperature control positions the GCV--when the IGVs are full open. Again, that's how the
Speedtronic knows when it's supposed to be on CPD-biased exhaust temperature control (Base Load)--when the
IGVs are full open (at their maximum operating angle).

Does this help? IGV exhaust temp control uses the CPD-biased exhaust temp control reference (TTRX) as it's
reference for positioning the IGVs when IGV exhaust temp control is active and enabled.

Have a look at how CSRGV is determined, and you will find lots of new questions.
 Thank you again for your comment, it helps a lot.

So when the unit is on Base Load, the exhaust temperature is controlled by CPD-biased exhaust temperature? and
when the unit is on Part Load,it is controlled by IGV exhaust control?

I heard that when it is a Combined cycle, IGV exhaust control is meant to keep T4* at maximum value, and if it is
a simple cycle, the exhaust temperature is not controlled.
 25
When closing the IGVs on Part load to keep to the T4* at maximum, how does the CPR change, and CPR in
turn will decide the maximum allowable exhaust temperature. That seems tricky.

I would like to refer to CSRGV when time is available.

 What's this "T4*"?

We can talk about CSRGV; later. Once we finish with L4T! Which should be VERY interesting for the unit at your
site.

There's no trickery involved. At Part Load (less than Base Load) the IGVs can be used to maximize exhaust
temperature--and the maximum allowable exhaust temperature at ANY time is always TTRX. So, the IGVs just
remain at minimum operating angle until TTXM reaches TTRX. As fuel increases and TTXM would tend to
increase the IGVs open to keep TTXM equal to TTRX.

Once the IGVs reach maximum operating angle and TTXM equals TTRX--well, that's the definition of Base Load.
It's very simple, and, again, no trickery involved.

Units without a heat recovery steam generator (an HRSG, or "boiler") on the gas turbine exhaust (or units with a
diverter in the exhaust, which can divert the exhaust directly to atmosphere instead of to the HRSG) can operate
without IGV exhaust temperature control (if they are non-DLN units). This is commonly called "simple cycle"
(sometimes called "single cycle") and is more efficient than operating with IGV exhaust temp control ON because
the unit is exhausting to atmosphere and there's no benefit in making exhaust temperature higher by restricting air
flow through the unit. (The benefit of maximizing exhaust temperature is for the overall combined cycle--when
steam is being produced with the gas turbine exhaust. It actually slightly reduces the efficiency of the gas turbine
(the simple cycle), but it increases the overall thermal efficiency of the plant (the combined cycle)).
 Sorry I have a question may be related to this discussion. GE gas turbine frame 6B old upgraded to Mark V, at
start up the temperature control starting at 40% speed, and the speed going up very slow up to 47% and held for
2 seconds then going down,the IGV angle in control from 34 to 86. so please can you help me to overcome the
early starting of temperature control.

 I think when you referring to temperature control it is IGV temperature control,right?

I checked CSRGVPS and CSRGVV3 blocks in the application code,i find that when the unit is under 40% rated
speed, CSRGV is specified by CSRGVPS (Part speed VIGV refrence). So the unit should not in IGV temperature
control mode. CSRGV is the output of a minimum selector out of IGV temperature control, IGV part speed control
and maximum open IGV position (usually 86deg.)

During start up,the IGV will normally open from 34deg (My unit),and reaches the minimum operating angle 57deg
(My unit) when the unit ramped up to 85.72% corrected speed (My unit). And i think the IGV temperature control
will not take in charge before the unit ramped to 100% corrected speed. And the IGV temperature control is not the
same for combined cycle unit or simple cycle unit.

Above is the the background knowledge i know about IGV control.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You may should check the history data of TTXM,CSRGVPS,CSRGVX,TTGXGV and any other signal that is
related to IGV control to see whether there is any unusual.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And i think the best way for you is to offer more information (combine cycle or simple cycle...), and ask CSA for
help, as he is the real master.
 Here are the kind of questions one should ask after a careful reading of the original post:

When was the control system upgraded to Mark V?

 26
When did this problem start? After a maintenance outage? After a trip from load?

What Process Alarms are active during starting?

What Diagnostic Alarms are active during starting?

[Most people simply ignore all alarms--that's because some Speedtronic turbine control panels were so poorly
commissioned that they are continually--and erroneously--annunciating lots of alarms, and operators just become
immune to them. Also, some site do so little maintenance and up-keep that alarms come and go, and some stay for
years. Alarms are important--VERY important--and while most "operators" never have it properly explained to
them it's one of their most important job functions: to manage alarms. Managing alarms means to take action
whenever an alarm occurs. First, they should silence any audible alarm indication; then they should read the alarm
text message and acknowledge the alarm. Then they need to take action to resolve the alarm--which is not just to
check to see if the turbine has tripped, and if it's still running, to just walk away. Resolving alarms means
understanding what the alarm message is indicating, taking action to see if the alarm message is true (such as
checking the L.O. Header Temperature to see if the High L.O. Temperature alarm is true or not), and if it is true
take appropriate action to lower the L.O. temperature--or notify the appropriate department/individual to take
action, while continuing to monitor the condition and lower load if the L.O. temperature can't be lowered.

Diagnostic Alarms are NOT nuisance alarms--they weren't intended to be, but that's how most people perceive
them. A lot of times it's found that during an investigation of a serious forced outage that one or two Process
Alarms had been active for some time indicating a failure of some sensor or device that prevented operators from
properly recognizing a serious condition as it was developing. Just because a turbine continues to run when an
alarm (Process or Diagnostic) is annunciated does NOT mean the turbine is running as it should.

So, always try to remember to ask, "What alarms were annunciated?" (Here at control.com the overwhelming
majority of questioners never respond to the request to list alarms, probably because there is no printed record of
alarms (the printer is either broken, out of paper, or unplugged). And, operators don't log alarms to the Operations
Log as they should. But, people should still be made aware that alarms are important and they should not be
ignored (that's one of our duties--to try to help people be better operators and technicians).]

What fuel is being burned during starting?

Next, you explain what should be happening versus what is being described, following with some details of a
normal, typical start-up.

While it's not uncommon for units to hit CPD-biased exhaust temperature control briefly during acceleration--it's
<b>NOT</b> common for them to hit exhaust temperature control at 40% speed. The usual cause of a problem
like this is that the starting means is not supplying sufficient torque during starting to accelerate the machine so the
Speedtronic is adding additional fuel to try to help acceleration.

The IGVs, if they are modulated type, should not move from the "closed" position (typically 34 degrees angle) to
the minimum operating position (usually 57 degrees angle) until, as Neo says, about 80% speed--regardless of
exhaust temperature. It seems like some logic is being forced or some Control Constant has incorrectly been
modified that is causing the IGVs to open prematurely--which also has the effect of increasing the air flow through
the axial compressor which usually increases the torque required from the starting means, which is not helping the
problem at all.

If the machine is older, and the starting means and/or the torque converter have not been refurbished in a while it's
very likely that insufficient torque is being transmitted to assist with acceleration, causing more fuel to be admitted,
causing the exhaust temperature to be very high (prematurely).

A lot of sites have been steadily increasing start-up and acceleration FSRs over time to compensate for degrading
starting means and/or torque converters. The starting means, through the torque converter, should be providing
torque up to about 50-60% speed for a properly working starting means system. At that point, usually the turbine
 27
speed is greater than the starting means/torque converter output speed and the clutch opens, and usually fuel
increases slightly to help maintain acceleration. Because the IGVs are still closed (or should be!) the exhaust
temperature is still increasing as speed is increasing. Usually, exhaust temperature peaks just about the time the
IGVs <i><b>should be</b></i> moving from 34 to 57 degrees. And then the exhaust temperature should generally
reach it's maximum peak--which can never by higher than the CPD-biased exhaust temperature reference, TTRX,
sometimes hitting the CPD-biased exhaust temperature control (TTRX) but the unit should still be accelerating.
Exhaust temperature will usually start dropping around the time the IGVs move to 57 DGA, and CPD will also
start increasing faster.

But, the torque assist from the starting means (via the torque converter) is very important--especially at lower
turbine speeds during acceleration. Without it, so much fuel would be required that the fuel would be limited by
CPD-biased exhaust temperature control (FSRT will be less than FSRACC or FSRN or FSRSU)--and the
acceleration rate (TNHA) would slow, and if it starts decelerating then the unit will trip on "bog down."

If the turbine has a diesel engine starting means, I've seen dirty air filters and dirty fuel filters cause low torque
output. If there is any white smoke coming from the diesel engine exhaust that means there is incomplete
combustion in one or more cylinders--which means that fuel is being waster and torque production is lower than it
should be. Black smoke is good--but if it's excessive black smoke then the diesel starting means is overloaded. If
the diesel was recently serviced, it's not uncommon for the fuel control racks to be improperly adjusted. Have you
checked the diesel speed to see if it's at it's normal speed during acceleration? (The signal name is usually PN,
PN_RPM or PN_PR, or something similar.)

If the torque converter was recently refurbished, there have been several incidences of poor quality refurbishment
recently. There can be problems with any solenoid(s) in the torque converter oil circuit, as well as oil flow
problems in the torque converter oil circuit (sometimes there are strainers which need periodic maintenance;
sometimes there are manual valves which need to be checked to make sure they are in their correct positions).

Then you ask the questioner to please write back to let us know how they resolve

 Thanks a lot for your valuable reply, my unit is simple cycle. to overcome my problem issue (unit can't reach
the FSNL) I increased the IGV angle from 34 to 42 from the beginning then the unit reaching the FSNL
successfully. on the other hand with the existing IGV angle 34 the unit can't reaching the FSNL, so please
advice.

 It is my honor that you think my response helps.

I advise to read CSA's response carefully. i am sure it helps.

If it still doesn't work, let us work together then.

BTW, in my opinion, you should not set IGV manually during start. it may cause damage.
 How is everything going?
Did you solve the thermal blockage problem by increasing the start means torque?
 Already i checked the diesel engine loaded speed which was 2320 rpm and replace the torque converter by
refurbished one and the inside pressure reached 120 psi as the old one pressure was 58 psi. still the same problem
(after starting the turbine exhaust temperature coming very high in short time (20% speed temp 140C, 40% speed
500C) as the temperature control starting from 40% of speed. furthermore i remove the fuel nozzles and cleaned.

for your kind information this problem not found before the last MI since 5 months ago.

I need to share with some control snap shots

thanks a lot for your always support.

 Glad to receive your reply.But this is out of my capability, lets ask CSA for help.
 28
And your problem seems complicated. If it is not caused by lack of torque produced by startmeans, will it be the
fuel system isn't calibrated properly? Or the control constant is not set properly in FSRSU block. It really confuses
me.

I hope CSA will give guidance.

 Already i checked the diesel engine loaded speed which was 2320 rpm and replace the torque converter by
refurbished one and the inside pressure reached 120 psi as the old one pressure was 58 psi. still the same problem
(after starting the turbine exhaust temperature coming very high in short time (20% speed temp 140C, 40% speed
500C) as the temperature control starting from 40% of speed. furthermore i remove the fuel nozzles and cleaned.

for your kind information this problem not found before the last MI since 5 months ago.

I need to share with some control snap shots.

 CSV, In response to the following excerpts from your post below:

"[Most people simply ignore all alarms--that's because some Speedtronic turbine control panels were so poorly
commissioned that they are continually—and erroneously--annunciating lots of alarms, and operators just become
immune to them... Alarms are important--VERY important—and while most "operators" never have it properly
explained to them it's one of their most important job functions: to manage alarms. Managing alarms means to take
action whenever an alarm occurs. First, they should silence any audible alarm indication; then they should read the
alarm text message and acknowledge the alarm. Then they need to take action to resolve the alarm--which is not
just to check to see if the turbine has tripped, and if it's still running, to just walk away. Resolving alarms means
understanding what the alarm message is indicating, taking action to see if the alarm message is true (such as
checking the L.O. Header Temperature to see if the High L.O. Temperature alarm is true or not), and if it is true
take appropriate action to lower the L.O. temperature--or notify the appropriate department/individual to take
action, while continuing to monitor the condition and lower load if the L.O. temperature can't be lowered.
Diagnostic Alarms are NOT nuisance alarms--they weren't intended to be, but that's how most people perceive
them. A lot of times it's found that during an investigation of a serious forced outage that one or two Process
Alarms had been active for some time indicating a failure of some sensor or device that prevented operators from
properly recognizing a serious condition as it was developing. Just because a turbine continues to run when an
alarm (Process or Diagnostic) is annunciated does NOT mean the turbine is running as it should.
... (that's one of our duties--to try to help people be better operators and echnicians)..."

You have painted with a very broad brush the skill-set and qualifications of the Operations Department in Gas
Turbine based power plants.

I come to this site because it usually presents very useful information, although I read many questions from
Engineers that seem so obvious.

You are a very qualified, educated, and properly trained person, from your responses concerning GE Gas Turbines.

Perhaps what you should have said is "Some operators aren't aware of how serious some of these alarms are" or
"There are instances where...", instead of insulting the highly skilled operators at gas turbine plants, many who
have come through the Navy Nuclear Program or higher level university programs on power plant operations.

This site has been quite helpful to some of our folks, and I would hate to be banned for defending my operators.
Your technical advice, on the whole, is quite useful, but please refrain from painting all operators as a bunch of
helpless, uneducated, unskilled and unmotivated personnel who need help in determining how to respond to an
alarm.
 Your statement, "...although I read many questions from Engineers that seem so obvious...." is very telling and
reveals you have not experienced the wide disparity in operations which exists even in the Americas, and to a
larger extent around the world.

With the exception of some EU countries (and those soon to be exiting the EU) training requirements for power
plant operators (gas turbine-based or otherwise) are very low, and getting lower. Power plant owners and
 29
supervisors falsely believe automation will protect the plant from every possible problem or failure--even
operator-initiated problems.

You, sir, are leading a charmed life, and working with ex-Navy nuke personnel who MUST be capable of
understanding the work of their posting and rely on their shipmates to keep everyone alive when at sea, and have
LOTS of training <i>before</i> they step aboard a ship or sub, means the level of thought and critical thinking in
the Control Room-and probably in the plant--is very high. You should count your lucky stars, while at the same
realizing that your situation is the exception rather than the rule.

I specifically said "most people" not all, recognizing that there are very qualified people in the industry--but they
are the exception rather than the rule. I also want to say that in most cases the fault lies not with the operator or
technician, but with the people hiring them. Most hiring managers (<b>not</b> all) are not willing to pay for
training, worried that after receiving the training the employees will leave for a higher wage somewhere else--
across the street, in some cases.

There is a saying about a CFO (Chief Financial Officer) asking his CEO (Chief Executive Officer) about the risk of
investing in training their employees only to have them leave. The CEO replies, "What if we don't invest in
training, and the employess stay?" That's not (yet) the prevailing way of thinking in the ivory tower, or below.

I hope you and your operators will continue to return to control.com--but I more sincerely hope you and your
operators will offer the benefit of your experience and knowledge to others posting here. For my part, I will reduce
the editorializing and generalizations. Sometimes after struggling with people to try to get them to look at P&IDs
and alarms to understand what happened to their plant and how it happened--only to be told, "YOU JUST MAKE
DAMN SURE IT WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN!" (by modifying the control system programming) my frustration
boils over to my responses.

But the fact remains, your experience and current situation is the exception--not the rule; I sincerely hope you
never land in a lesser situation. And please accept my sincere apology if you or your operators felt tainted by my
broad brush (which comes from painful personal experience). Believe me when I tell you that the audible alarm
annunciator (beeper; bell; horn; etc.) in most Control Rooms is totally disabled (in some cases broken from
excessive use) and operators don't pay any attention to any alarms when they are annunciated, and mostly only
when the unit trips.

In many cases their supervisors actually tell them the control system will protect the unit and they shouldn't take
any action to reduce load or shut down without first obtaining the permission of the Plant Manager (who's always
got both eyes on the spreadsheet). And then gets extremely angry when "the control system" doesn't do what he
thinks it should, and there's a wreck.

Again, my apologies for not considering there are good operators in the world. I only wish I ran into more of them,
more often.
 Does the final block of CSRGV is min select block or max select block of above stated variables?
 >The IGV position reference, CSRGV, is the output of a MAX
>select block--just like FSR is the output of a MAX select
>block.

I think. FSR is output of minimum select gate, and at 700 Degree FTTXM IGV starts opening if IGV temp selected
"ON".
 There is 'exhaust temperature control' and there is 'exhaust temperature control.' Which exhaust temperature
control are you referring to?

Most GE-design heavy duty gas turbines have CPD-biased exhaust temperature control (this is what defines Base
Load--and is the maximum allowable exhaust temperature based on operating conditions <b>when the IGVs are at
their maximum operating angle.</b>
 30
And, most GE-design heavy duty gas turbines also have IGV exhaust temperature control--which is the method
of maximizing exhaust temperature at part load (below Base Load) by keeping the IGVs closed as long as possible
which restricts the air flow through the machine and increases the exhaust temperature.

When the unit is being loaded from synchronization and IGV exhaust temperature control is enabled and active the
IGVs will be held closed until TTXM (the average exhaust temperature) gets very close to TTRX (the CPD-biased
exhaust temperature control reference--again: the maximum allowable exhaust temperature for the current
operating condition). So, the IGVs will be held at 57 DGA until TTXM gets very close to TTRX (sometimes,
depending on the vintage of the control algorithm, it will be when TTXM equals TTRX) as load is increased the
exhaust temperature would tend to increase above TTRX--and the IGVs are opened slightly to maintain the
TTXM/TTRX relationship. This is IGV exhaust temperature control.

This continues during loading until the IGVs are fully open, and when TTXM equals TTRX then the unit is said to
be operating on CPD-biased exhaust temperature control. Again, CPD-biased exhaust temperature control only
occurs when the IGVs are fully open--that's part of the definition of Base Load: when the IGVs are fully open
<i>and</i> fuel flow is such that TTXM equals TTRX.

Hope this helps!

Two last things. First, if the turbine you are working on has DLN (Dry Low NOx) combustors, IGV exhaust
temperature control is not operator-selectable; it's always on.

Second, when a GE-design heavy duty gas turbine without DLN combustors is operating with IGV exhaust
temperature control disabled and not active when the exhaust temperature hits 700 or 900 deg F (sorry; I can't
remember which temperature exactly) the IGVs will start opening to maintain that temperature (either 700 or 900
deg F) as the unit is loaded until such time as the IGVs are fully open. The operator interface display will show
"EXHAUST TEMPERATURE CONTROL" during this period. The purpose of this 'exhaust temperature control' is
to limit combustor pressure pulsations during loading (which occurs around 700 or 900 deg F--which I could
remember which, but I can't; sorry). So, really, there's 'exhaust temperature control' and there's 'exhaust
temperature control' and there's 'exhaust temperature control.' (Isn't this fun?)
Click to expand...Dear CSA
thanks for your complete answers.
just one question:Where does this (either 700 or 900 deg F) come from?Is there any formula?In our site it's 700F
which equals 371C for GE F9 Non DLN combustion system.
I appreciate if anyone dedicates answer.

Turbine Tripping on "Combustion Trouble" & "High Exhaust Temp Spread Trip"
We have GE 6FA Gas turbine and Mark-VIe system with TMR configuration. During shutdown of machine load
command was changed from 65 MW to 15 MW, and m/c unloaded normally up to 15 MW, but unloading did not
stopped at 15 MW. Load further decreased down to 1.89 MW. At same time fuel mode change-over M6BQ to M6Q,
as a resultant GCV4 closed. Load started hunting up/down and GCV-1, 2, & 3 also started hunting.

Exhaust thermocouples TTXD1_1, TTXD1_19, TTXD1_20, TTXD1_21 values decreased. It has occurred two
times. Please suggest probable reasons.

Is it advisable to check the combustion internals?

 It really sounds like there is something wrong with the fuel control system that is causing the problem, and that
flame is being lost because of low fuel flow-rate through the nozzles in one or more combustors resulting in the
Combustion Trouble and High(-High) Exaust Temperature Spread Trips. If the unit exhaust temperature spreads
are normal during normal loaded operation, but this problem only occurs during unloading, then it's mostly likely
some kind of problem with the fuel control valves or the sensors monitoring fuel pressures or the hydraulic
actuators or possibly the servo-valves (which would be the result of DIRTY oil--not usually a servo-valve
problem).
 31
However, it's pretty likely that there are Diagnostic Alarms being annunciated which would help troubleshoot
the issue. Can you please provide the Alarm History from one or both events? (Many people post electronic files to
web-sharing/hosting sites and then post the link to the files in a reply to the post so we can access the file(s) and
examine them).

Wish we could be more help--but we just don't have enough information to say more than the above. Alarms--
Process <b><i>AND</i></b> Diagnostic--are always very important when trying to troubleshoot operational
issues.

Hope this helps! Please write back to let us know what you find, or to provide more information.

Why exhaust Temperature curve is negative

I am working with GE gas turbine having Mark VI control system.
As I have gone through various threads here regarding exhaust temperature control.

I understand that as CPD increases exhaust temperature decreases and vice versa.

this is for maintaining constant firing temperature. but i am not able to understand that how this thing is being
done.
As per normal understanding, more CPD => more fuel =>more exhaust temperature.

But how it is maintaining constant firing temperature by reducing exhaust temperature reference upon CPD
increase.
 As CPD increases, cooling air flows increase, so relationship between Firing Temperature & Exhaust
Temperature changes slightly. To maintain constant Firing Temperature as this CPD increases requires a slight
reduction in Exhaust Temp.
 But that is what i am asking, what is relation is between firing and exhaust temperature. And how exhaust
temperature affects firing temperature.

And by lowering exhaust temperature HOW firing temperature is being maintained at constant value.
 What we are really trying to control on a Gas Turbine is Firing Temp. On industrial turbines particularly, it is
difficult to measure Firing temp. and have thermocouples that would be easy to replace so we measure Exhaust
Temp. and use this to control Firing Temp. There is a known relationship between the two which we use as the
calculation but Cooling Air flows (which comes directly from CPD)will change this relationship. As CPD
increases at the same Firing Temp. the Exhaust Temp will become slightly lower due to the increased cooling
flow. As Exhaust Temp. is the basis for Temperature Control, this would allow us to increase load to come back
to the same Exhaust Temp. point but the increase in load would allow the firing temp to increase. We don't want
this to happen as we would be overfiring the machine so , as the CPD increase, we reduce the Exhaust Temp.
control setpoint to maintain a constant Firing temp.

Maybe the concept is difficult to understand for you, I hope this helps to clarify.
 Whenever there is increase in CPD, exhaust temp control should issue the lower Set point for exhaust Temp to
control the firing Temp within the limit. If exhaust temp remains same, there will be increase in firing
temperature with same exhaust Temp.

Pl. refer to the basic brayton cycle with Pressure and Entropy coordinate.If there in rise in pressure at compressure
discharge, turbine inlet point will shift upward with same exhaust temp (identical operating point for Turbine
outlet/discharge), so firing temp. will be high.

To control the firing temp, there is shift of turbine outlet point downwards.

Hope explanation above will help you to understand.

 Now i can understand why exhaust temperature comes down upon CPD increase.

Yet I have two questions in my mind -

 32

1. How firing temperature can be increased by increasing "CPD bias corner TTK_C(0)" and "FSR bias corner". as
we did this for gas turbine under uprate scheme.

2. In temperature control curve CPD bias, before corner point does firing temperature remains at constant value or
does it start to stay at constant point only after corner point.

Also before corner point does firing temperature reaches the max limit or remains at lower value?
 I am writing again here if i failed to put correctly my above question.
I want to know that, does firing temperature remain constant from the beginning of the temperature control curve? i
mean at lower CPD values OR before corner point in graph, "firing temperature remains constant" or only after
corner point it remains constant?

Before corner point does firing temperature increases with increase in CPD?
 Before the "corner" point (on the horizontal part of the control curve) the firing temperature is less than the
limit. The horizontal part, also called the isothermal limit, is there to protect the exhaust system components. If
you study the software code for the control, you will see that the control limit is a "low select" between the
isothermal limit and the calculated firing temperature limit.
 Ok that means on horizontal line before corner point, the firing temperature remains less than limit firing
temperature.
Is it correct till now?

Secondly, on horizontal line does firing temperature increase from with increase in CPD?

From very left value on X-Axis(CPD axis)to corner point for CPD, firing temperature increases?
 Kindly reply to this post, as i need the answer urgently.

How does firing temperature behave for entire graph.

From CPD zero value to higher value?
Does firing temperature remains same for entire graph?
 We all try our best on this self help forum to give answers whenever we have the time to spare. For this
question people have given so much help already, when you ask for an urgent answer, it kind of puts me off
replying.

It seems that you don't really understand the relationship between CPD and firing temp yet. As has been stated
already, on the horizontal section of the graph, the firing temp will start lower than the limit, at the beginning it will
be at it's lowest and, until the knee point, it will increase until it is at it's maximum allowed at the knee point. From
there it will be held constant by the decreasing exhaust temp. control set-point.
 Recently our OPs department needed a more detailed explanation of how the exhaust temperature is controlled
during baseload operation. We looked at the site specific logic & control constants and developed an excel sheet
that mimics the logic. Use the following link to download it:

(Remember to remove any spaces in the links above that might be inserted by the forum software; both links are
active at the moment but will be removed by the websites soon as I only have the free account on the above 2 file
sharing services, and that means all uploads come with an expiration date).

The sheet is in xlsm format because it contains a macro for the double linear interpolation function (it is not
available in excel in a simple formula, so a macro was needed). Allow any macros if prompted.

At the top left you will find the inputs that are needed to determine the exhaust temp setpoint. You enter the
conditions there, and the sheet will tell you the setpoint (TTRXB) that the GT tries to match by varying fuel (via
temp FSR, FSRT).

The sheet also makes a graph of TTRXB vs CPR to give you an idea of variation of TTRXB for different CPD.
Note that the curve changes as well based in the inputs.
 33

Ignore the combined cycle options.

Please note that this is a very site specific sheet. The control constants and logic might be different on your site,
and there is no way of telling whats going on at your site without looking at the m6b/tcw . But the differences
would be small and the sheet will help you get a very good idea for what you are looking for. Of course, I am
assuming that you will be able to look at the formulas in the sheet and work it out.
 I am not able to download the file. Can you please send it on my email id.

 I just check the links, they are both working. In the first link, there is an extra space (between set and point)...
you need to remove that manually.

The second link is working as it is.

You are expecting people who are helping you to post their email addresses instead of taking the time to create
your own private email address which you would feel safe giving out. I took the time to upload the files, and I
expect that you post your email address if you are unable to download from the above two links.
 And I am extremely sorry, if unknowingly i have wrote the wrong statement.
Actually reason was that, somehow i was not able to remember my password, that why i asked to give your id and i
will reply on that from my friend's mail id. I just didnt' want to write other persons id here.

 A gas turbine has generally two modes of operation (LCM & BASE, though Float is also there but I’m ignoring
that) in a co-generation plant. The moment we put the turbine in BASE mode it comes to PCD biased
Temperature control mode. But before that it is in LCM mode (below its rated value) and the limit acting is
isothermal limit for firing temperature. Now in LCM, when we have fixed the generation amount that means
(TNR-TNH) is always going to remain constant i.e. amount of fuel will remain constant. PCD at any point of
time will remain constant and Exhaust temperature will have some fixed value. Now suppose ambient conditions
favour and PCD value increases and the LCM is same as before then the firing temperature will reduce(just
because more cooling will be available) and vice versa.

So i believe the in the beginning of the curve the firing temperature will be maximum (for the horizontal line
portion only) and it will go on reducing as PCD increases till the time operator puts the machine in temperature
control mode.

GE Frame-9E Standard Combustion Machine

We have two GE-9E machines. Recently we are changing fuel from HSD to Natural gas. Both the machines have
the standard combustion with water injection facility for NOx control.

When we run the machines in temperature control mode OFF condition i.e. in Simple cycle mode the maximum
load range we have got 115 MW~119MW depends on ambient temperature. (in our case site conditions are: Atm
Temp=32 degC, RH=80%, Atm pressure=1013 mbarg.). But when we run the machines in temperature control
mode ON i.e. combined cycle mode the maximum load range, we have got 106~111 MW without water injection
and with water injection it changed to 113~115MW. As per our Combined cycle designed capacity both the GTs
load have to be 115MW to 119MW with water injection. So now we are facing capacity shortage issue from off
taker. We asked on site GE T/A but he did nothing. He sent data to GE Engineering team for review but still we
could not find a way to compensate the capacity.

In both control mode at base load IGV opening is full and the exhaust temperature is different with a little
difference in fuel flow rate. (in SC mode it is 520~528 degC and in CC mode it is 540~547degC). We all know the
control of machines based on the programming in software. (it follows load order from the control block). So we
also
requested GE for a review.
 My immediate thought..duct pressure losses.

>Anybody has any idea/suggestions please share.

 34
>
>was this an existing problem...or just discovered baseD on new off take requirements?
 was this an existing problem...or just discovered baseD on new off take requirements?

Good question.

From the actual nameplate of the GTs (on the inlet plenum wall on the right side of Turbine compartment) what are
the ratings for the two fuels?

How long since the last off-line compressor water wash for each unit?

How long since the last HGPI (Hot Gas Path Inspection)?

Have the IGV LVDT calibrations been <b>verified</b> using a machinist's protractor?

Water injection will only increase power output at Base Load.

Exhaust duct back-pressure shouldn't necessarily increase from one fuel to the other, and if it did I would expect it
to be very slightly higher on liquid fuel--for two reasons. First, because the mass flow-rate through the turbine is
usually very slightly higher on liquid fuel at Base Load than on gas fuel at Base Load. And, second, because
amount of water being injected while running at Base Load on liquid fuel is usually higher than than when running
at Base Load on gas fuel. The extra water flow also increases the mass flow-rate through the gas turbine, which
usually increases the Base Load rating on liquid fuel slightly.

Any rating given to the off-taker should be based on GT nameplate rating. In my experience, all other things being
equal the Base Load rating of a dual-fuel conventional combustor-equipped GE-design heavy duty gas turbine is
usually slightly higher on liquid fuel than it is on gas fuel.

Yes, it's possible to tweak the Control Constants to get some extra power--but that should only be done with the
knowledge that the firing temperature will also increase which should be factored into the maintenance outage
interval planning which means the intervals would decrease which means the cost of operation would increase. I'm
sure GE would accept a contract to do a performance test of the units and make recommendations for increasing
power output, and/or making Control Constant adjustments. But they're not likely just to do it based on a (polite)
request.

Answer the above questions and that may help understand what the conditions are that might be negativity
impacting power output.
 Do you have performance curves for both gas and HSD fuels? If so, do they indicate any difference in output
between the 2 fuels?
Where you are giving a difference in output between CC mode and SC mode, are you running CC mode with the
exhaust gas passing through the HRSG and SC mode with the exhaust gas bypassed to atmosphere? If so, the
additional exhaust back pressure with the HRSG in service will reduce the output of the gas turbine.

At base load condition, there should be no difference in output between CC and SC modes as long as the exhaust
path is the same. The fuel temperature control point is the same for both CC mode and SC modes. The IGV
temperature control curves are different, but once the IGV's reach the full open position, there is no difference
between CC and SC modes.

What is the configuration of the plant? Each gas turbine with its own HRSG providing steam to a single steam
turbine? Or, maybe, both gas turbines exhausting into a single larger HRSG? Or, 2 single-shaft units (gas turbine,
steam turbine and generator all on one shaft, and one HRSG for each)?

 Dear All(Mr. 2c,Mr. CSA,Mr. Otised)

Sorry fellows for the late reply of the messages.

 35

Q1:was this an existing problem...or just discovered baseD on new off take requirements?

Ans: off taker demand increased by 10% after fuel C/O from HSD to Natural Gas.Though the problem was
persisting since commissioning but in HSD demand was less.So nobody concentrated on the problem.

Q2: From the actual nameplate of the GTs (on the inlet plenum wall on the right side of Turbine compartment)
what are the ratings for the two fuels?

Ans: Compressor inlet conditions: 15degC,60%RH,1013 mbar

In HSD: 115300 KW,Heat Rate(LHV): 10960 KJ/KWh,Exhaust flow: 1508.6X10^3 kg/hr,Exh Temp: 520 degC.
In Natural Gas : 117900 KW,Heat Rate(LHV): 10870 KJ/KWh,Exhaust flow: 1504.6X10^3 kg/hr,Exh Temp: 519
degC.

Q3:How long since the last off-line compressor water wash for each unit?
Ans: Just before start up with new fuel(natural gas).

Q4: How long since the last HGPI (Hot Gas Path Inspection)?
Ans:HGPI of GT2 was carried out last year(November,2018) and For GT1 only boroscopic inspection carried out.

Q5: Have the IGV LVDT calibrations been verified using a machinist's protractor?
Ans: not really this time.Very beginning of commissioning of the new machines it was carried out.

Q6: Do you have performance curves for both gas and HSD fuels?
Ans: Yes, the output curves having very little difference.
Rated output: 115300KW on HSD & 117900 KW on NG.

Q7:Where you are giving a difference in output between CC mode and SC mode, are you running CC mode with
the exhaust gas passing through the HRSG and SC mode with the exhaust gas bypassed to atmosphere? If so, the
additional exhaust back pressure with the HRSG in service will reduce the output of the gas turbine.
Ans: CC mode-passing though HRSG.
SC mode- passing though bypass stack.

Q8:What is the configuration of the plant? Each gas turbine with its own HRSG providing steam to a single steam
turbine? Or, maybe, both gas turbines exhausting into a single larger HRSG? Or, 2 single-shaft units (gas turbine,
steam turbine and generator all on one shaft, and one HRSG for each)?
Ans: Plant configuration: 2GT-2HSRG-1ST

 You will need to provide (at Base Load steady state in CC mode):

CPD
CPDABS
AFPAP
CPR
TTXM
TTRX
TTKI_[0] (Control Constant)
TTKI_[1] (Control Constant)
TTKI_[2] (Control Constant)
TTKI_[3] (Control Constant)
TTKC_[0] (Control Constant)
TTKC_[1] (Control Constant)
TTKC_[2] (Control Constant)
TTKC_[3] (Control Constant)
TTKS_[0] (Control Constant)
 36
TTKS_[1] (Control Constant)
TTKS_[2] (Control Constant)
TTKS_[3] (Control Constant)

Steady State operation is considered to be when no wheelspace temperature changes by more than approximately 5
deg F in 15 minutes--and it usually takes about 4 hours for a unit to stabilize at Base Load when started from a cold
or warm condition (it may take a little less time if started from a hot condition, but not much less).

You need to provide ALL Process- and Diagnostic Alarms active when the unit is running at Base Load (especially
if the Process Alarm "BACK_UP FSR EXHAUST TEMP CONTROL ACTIVE" (or something similar) is active).
List all alarms--even if you don't think they are relevant. (It may be necessary to use ToolboxST to check the
Diagnostic Alarms on all I/O Packs with yellow or red icons next to them.)

If the unit has exhaust duct back-pressure transmitter(s), can you provide the Base Load data on both SC and CC?

With the above information, we can make a couple of simple calculations to see what the CPD (CPR) should be
when the unit is at Base Load for the conditions you are operating at, and, by extension the exhaust temperature.

Really, though, without being able to see the application code and Control Constant actually running in the
machine it is going to be very difficult to say what is happening. otised is correct--the backpressure of an HRSG
can cause the power output of the unit to decrease.

Finally, if the problem with output on Natural Gas was known at the time of commissioning, then GE should be
working diligently to try to rectify the problem. Was there a Performance Test done during commissioning and
before commercial acceptance of the unit by the owner? If so, and the Nat Gas power output was low, then GE
should technically be responsible for rectifying the problem. Yes?

If a Performance Test was run during commissioning, can you compare the exhaust duct back pressure at that time
to the exhaust duct back pressure now?
 Will get back to you after collecting those data.

 I have been looking at the data you posted and I don't understand what happened to the load over the time
period of the data in the file. Was it on Pre-Selected Load Control and the Pre-Selected Load Control Reference
(setpoint) was changed by the operator?

So far, my examination of the data doesn't show any unusual conditions. The grid frequency isn't all that stable, and
when that happens the axial compressor speed changes which changes the air flow through the axial compressor
which affects the gas turbine exhaust temperature which causes the IGVs to move. A "significant" decrease (more
than approximately 0.05%) in frequency (speed) will result in Droop Speed Control trying to increase load--which
will put more fuel in the machine which will also cause the gas turbine exhaust temperature to increase. Pre-
Selected Load Control, if it is active, will respond to the load increase to cause it to decrease (when Pre-Selected
Load Control is active it is an outer loop to Droop Speed Control, and when there are frequency/speed issues that
can affect load and IGV and exhaust temperature).

But, not knowing what was happening and causing the load changes during the period of the data file is a little
bothersome. The upshot is, from looking at the data it just doesn't seem that anything is really wrong. As was said
before--DLN combustion, since it relies on IGV control to maintain flame stability when operating at Part Load
can make things "swing" more than one would think would be necessary. Throw in a little grid frequency
oscillation, and that can only add to the oscillations. And, use Pre-Selected Load Control to grid frequency
excursions and, well, you have a recipe for even more oscillations of the IGVs.

I was sincerely hoping the data you would get would be for Part Load operation <i><b>with Pre-Selected Load
Control OFF.</i></b> You can use Pre-Selected Load control to unload from Base Load (or to load up to the
desired load from a start) and then once at the desired load, just click once on RAISE- or LOWER SPEED/LOAD
to cancel Pre-Selected Load Control. (Contrary to wildly popular and completely unfounded belief, the unit will
 37
not drift away from the current load. It will be hard--very, Very, VERY hard for the operators and their
supervisors to just let Droop Speed Control control the load, but rest assured. Before Pre-Selected Load Control
was invented EVERY generator prime mover in the world operated on Droop Speed Control at Part Load, and
there were no major catastrophes nor widespread blackouts. People didn't lose their jobs. All was good.) Just let
pure Droop Speed Control take care of what it's supposed to take care. (Be aware that if the grid frequency deviates
Droop Speed Control will try to compensate--that's one of it's very important features! AND, it's a feature the grid
operators WANT to work properly! So, small deviations in load may be experienced if the grid frequency isn't
stable. That's normal and to be expected. Pre-Selected Load Control, if active when the grid frequency is not stable,
actually makes grid frequency more unstable!!! YES--you read that right!!! It's NOT the proper way to be
continuously operating a GE-design heavy duty gas turbine (at ANY load)! Just take a deep breath, and I assure
you nothing catastrophic is going to happen, and no one is going to lose their job, and the unit is going to run
almost exactly like it did with Pre-Selected Load Control active. The only difference will be if the grid frequency
deviates, the load will also deviate (just as it would if Pre-Selected Load Control was active!) but it will actually be
more stable and not oscillate as much as if Pre-Selected Load Control was active.)

Operation without Pre-Selected Load Control active will allow you to collect better data--without the influence of
Pre-Selected Load Control possibly causing more exaggerated deviations. I didn't see 4 MW swings when
operating at 65 MW--which is what I believe you described earlier. BUT, I don't know what was happening during
the time the data was being collected, either, nor how it compares to when you see 4 MW swings while operating
with Pre-Selected Load Control active at 65 MW.

Anyway, so far--nothing unusual. Two turbines, built one right after the other, and installed and commissioned at
the same time, will never be identical in terms of fuel flow-rates, heat rate, and operating conditions. There are
simply too many variables (internal clearances; cleanliness; IGV operation; exhaust duct back pressure; inlet filter
cleanliness; ambient conditions (temperature; humidity; barometric pressure); and so on. It' just like two cars, made
by the same manufacturer on the same day on the same assembly line, of the same model, with the same engine
and transmission and tires and air filter and muffler--they will not operate identically. (There's a better chance of
that if the cars have computer-controlled fuel injection--which monitors oxygen content and adjusts fuel flow for
optimal conditions--something the Mark* DOES NOT do!!!)

Data. That's all we need. (And a little more time on my part; this has been the busiest maintenance outage season in
many years. This is what happens when the economy is about to tank.... People spend money on maintenance they
haven't spent in years, and then the economy usually begins to falter very shortly afterwards. It's actually very
cyclical, and predictable.)
 The following data so far I have collected from MarkVIe.<pre>
GT(SC)
AFPAP(mmHG) 756.35
ATID(°C) 20
CPD(barg) 10.9
CPR(ratio) 12
TTRX(°C) 529
TTXM(°C) 529
AFPEP(mmH20) -5.25
WQ(kg/Sec) 5.56
DWATT(MW) 124

GT(CC)
AFPAP(mmHG) 754.9
ATID(°C) 29
CPD(barg) 9.7
CPR(ratio) 11
TTRX(°C) 547
TTXM(°C) 544
AFPEP(mmH20) 353.17
WQ(kg/Sec) 4.48
 38
DWATT(MW) 105</pre>
>TTKI_[0] (Control Constant):1100
>TTKI_[1] (Control Constant):0
>TTKI_[2] (Control Constant):1100
>TTKI_[3] (Control Constant):0
>TTKC_[0] (Control Constant):7.39098600715913
>TTKC_[1] (Control Constant):0
>TTKC_[2] (Control Constant):7.67451298701298
>TTKC_[3] (Control Constant):0
>TTKS_[0] (Control Constant):24.584
>TTKS_[1] (Control Constant):0
>TTKS_[2] (Control Constant):24.64
>TTKS_[3] (Control Constant):0

Regarding Back up FSR, there was no such alarm generated.Only the alarm was" FSR Temperature Reference
Active".

The major difference we have observed in Exhaust Pressure during simple cycle(SC) and combined Cycle(CC)
mode.
 NOW we're getting somewhere. Alarms DO mean something!!! FSR Temperature Reference <b>IS</b> the
Back-up Exhaust Temperature Control!!! (Also known as "Secondary" Exhaust Temperature Control. Primary
Exhaust Temperature Control is CPR-biased exhaust temperature control.)

The turbine should ALWAYS be operating on the Primary Exhaust Temperature Control reference (TTRXP).
Secondary, or Back-up, Exhaust Temperature Control is intended to be used if the CPD transmitters aren't working
properly.

The concept is that the Primary- (TTRXP) and Secondary (Back-up) Exhaust Temperature Control (TTRXS)
references (which are ALWAYS being calculated!) are supposed to be parallel to each other and NEVER intersect
(at least not in any operating region of the unit). BUT, when the alarm "FSR Temperature Reference Active" is
annunciated and active that means the Secondary (Back-up) Exhaust Temperature Control reference is LESS than
the Primary (CPR-biased) Exhaust Temperature Control reference--and that's NOT how it's supposed to work. The
two exhaust temperature control references (Primary and Secondary (Back-up)) feed into a MIN SEL block which
chooses the lower of the two. And, unless the CPD transmitters are not working properly the Primary Exhaust
Temperature Control Reference (TTRXP, the CPR-biased reference) should always be the lower of the two--
<b>IF</b> the Secondary (Back-up) Exhaust Temperature Control Reference Control Constants were calculated
properly.

You need to get GE or whoever supplied the turbine-generator package to re-calculate the Exhaust Temperature
Control Constants, both the Primary- and Secondary (Back-up) Exhaust Temperature Control Constants. Again, the
resulting temperature reference "curves" should parallel each other very closely--but they should NOT intersect
each other in any expected operating region of the unit when properly calculated.

The "FSR Temperature Reference Active" (the Back-up Exhaust Temperature Control Reference) is only supposed
to come into play when the CPD transmitters are not working properly. And, when the alarm is active the site
personnel should be working to understand why the alarm is active and resolving the condition to clear the alarm,
and return the unit to operation to the Primary Exhaust Temperature Control Reference (CPR-biased).

NOW, the problem may be that the 96AP transmitters may be not calibrated or working correctly--they are used to
calculate CPR. And, it may also be that both the 96APs and the 96CDs are not working properly (not likely, but
still possible) and that's causing a problem with CPR. But, most likely the problem is that the Secondary (Back-up)
Exhaust Temperature Control Constants were not calculated properly.

You can verify this by looking at TTRXP and TTRXS when the unit is running. TTRXP should ALWAYS be less
than TTRXS, by a few degrees F. If TTRXS is ever less than TTRXP then the alarm you described will be active--
 39
and that means that TTRX is <b>LESS</b> than it should be--and that means that the power output of the unit
at Base Load is less than it should be!

Alarms DO mean something. They really, Really, REALLY, <b>REALLY</b> do!!! Just because the unit is still
operating (and hasn't tripped) doesn't mean it is running correctly. And, when the alarm you described is active, it's
not running at its full potential. It's at its full potential when TTRXP is the lesser of the two (TTRXP and TTRXS).

That's why I always try to remember to ask, "What Process- and Diagnostic Alarms are active?" when people write
to ask for help with a (perceived) problem. In this case, the Mark* is doing what it's programmed to do--but
something is either amiss with the inputs (easily verifiable by verifying proper operation and calibration (scaling)
of the 96AP and 96CD transmitter inputs), or the factory calculation of the Control Constants. And people have
become so immune to alarms they just don't believe any alarm (except ones that trip the unit--and even they can't
identify which alarm actually tripped the unit!!!) because the commissioning personnel DID NOT make sure the
unit would start and go to Base Load with ZERO alarms (Process and/or Diagnostic), and shut down from Base
Load to Cooldown with ZERO alarms. "Nuisance" alarms <b>ARE NOT</b> normal! But because the Mark*
systems are so poorly configured from the factory and because commissioning personnel are not supervised and
evaluated on their ability to reduce "nuisance" alarm during normal operation (start-up, loading, unloading,
shutdown, cooldown) too many units are left with LOTS of so-called "nuisance" alarms--which just shouldn't
happen. It doesn't have to happen. It should be part of the commissioning Quality Control for commissioning
personnel to be evaluated on the state of alarms when commissioning is "complete." But, it's not. It's never been.
And the factory programs somethings to be alarms that ARE NOT really alarms--just "events" they think the
operators should be aware of.

NOW, sometimes when a performance test is done during commissioning, GE adjusts some Control Constant
values to achieve the desired operation and optimum performance. BUT, sometimes when they change one set of
Control Constant values (usually the Primary Exhaust Temperature Control Reference Control Constants) the
<i>forget</i> to recalculate the Secondary (Back-up) Exhaust Temperature Reference Control Constants.

Finally, it could be that the GCV LVDT calibration is not correct--not likely, but that could be the problem. I'm
trying to list all possible problems, and state the likelihood of each one. In my experience, when the alarm you
described is active it's because of improper calculation of Exhaust Temperature Control Constants. And, really only
the GE factory engineers have the ability to plot CPR and FSR side-by-side to determine if they are parallel and
will not intersect during any expected operating conditions (really hot days; really cold days).

I'm going to guess that when the unit is in Simple Cycle mode, the "FSR Temperature Reference Active Alarm" IS
NOT active (that is--TTRXP is less than TTRXS) (IS NOT being annunciated). And, when the unit is in Combined
Cycle mode, the "FSR Temperature Reference Active Alarm IS active (it IS being annunciated). Those are
SWAGS, but probably pretty accurate.

Alarms DO mean something. Operators, their Supervisors, Technicians and their Supervisors, and Plant Managers
<b>should NOT</b> live with any alarm they don't understand. Full stop. Period.

Exhaust Temperature Control Reference Limit

We work at GE gas turbine frame 9fa. Does TTRX and firing temp and IGV has different reference value at simple
operation and combined cycle operation?

And Does IGV control exhaust temp at simple cycle or only in combined cycle?
 Unfortunately, the answer to your question is not simple. And it's made even more complicated by the unit you
work on.

GE-design F-class turbines can be configured in MANY different ways, AND they can also exhaust into MANY
different types of HRSGs (Heat Recovery Steam Generators, or boilers) to produce steam for a steam turbine
and/or a nearby process (such as a refinery). This can--and does--complicate things greatly.
 40
Most F-class turbine are also equipped with DLN (Dry Low NOx) combustion systems. And most of these Dry
Low NOx combustion systems use the IGVs to control air flow-rates at part load conditions (less than Base Load).
Further, many F-class DLN combustion systems utilize Inlet Bleed Heat, a very poor name for the function it
provides which is to protect the axial compressor when IGV angles are below compressor design minimums
(which is necessary with DLN combustion systems operating at low- and part load conditions).

There are also HRSGs which have maximum inlet temperatures which cannot be exceeded in order to protect the
HRSG internals. This requirement is often programmed into the GE turbine control system when operating in
combined cycle mode (exhausting into the HRSG). And, we don't know anything about the HRSGs at your plant.

So, there are simply too many unknowns for us to make any definitive statement or provide any concrete answers
to your questions. Presuming the HRSGs don't have any inlet temperature limits and that the unit have DLN
combustions systems my best guess would be that, no, there would not be any difference between simple cycle and
combined cycle IGV scheduling. But, that's just a guess based on past experience. And, the GE engineers at
Belfort, France, that have the responsibility for programming Frame 9 machines (9Es and 9Fs and 9FAs) have been
known to do some very atypical things with their turbine control schemes.

I wish the response could have been better, but with all the possible variables it's really impossible to provide an
answer which is applicable to your site without knowing a LOT more about the turbines and the HRSGs. And, with
the Belfort complication, it's even more difficult to make a definitive statement about the units at your site.

>And Does IGV control exhaust temp at simple cycle or only in

>combined cycle?

As for your last question, on units equipped with DLN combustion systems the IGVs are programmed in such as
way as to maximize exhaust temperature at part load while controlling air flow in order to maintain stability in the
combustors. GE knows what the air flows are when the IGVs are being used to maximize exhaust temperatures and
uses that information to schedule (program) IGV operation to optimize combustor stability during part load
operation (so as not to exceed optimum air/fuel ratios, which are NOT usually measured or monitored or even
calculated by the turbine control system). Technically speaking, the IGVs don't "control" exhaust temperature, but
rather they are controlled "by" exhaust temperature--they are held closed as much as possible during part load
operation and open when the exhaust temperature reaches the maximum for that operating condition as fuel is
added to the unit to increase load.

It's kind of difficult to explain without graphs and charts and drawings, but the IGVs are being used to limit air
flow, and when they limit air flow that results in higher than normal exhaust temperatures (higher than if the IGVs
were NOT being used to limit air flow at part load). So the miminum opening of the IGVs is determined by the
maximum allowable exhaust temperature, and as fuel in increased during loading of the unit the exhaust
temperature would tend to increase but the IGVs are opened to maintain an exhaust temperature limit based on
current operating conditions.

Again, a very difficult thing to explain without graphs and charts and drawings. The IGVs of machines with DLN
combustors aren't being used to control exhaust temperature; the position of the IGVs is a function of exhaust
temperature--at part load. The exhaust temperature can never be allowed to exceed the exhaust temperature
reference limit (TTRX) for any given operating condition. And, as fuel is added which would tend to increase the
exhaust temperature the IGVs are then opened to reduce or maintain the exhaust temperature equal to the exhaust
temperature reference limit. And, this is all done to limit air flow into the combustors so as to maintain stable
combustion in the combustors and not blow the flame out or have too rich a flame (excessive fuel with respect to
air).

Hope this helps! And, for F-class machines with exhaust bypass stacks that can run in simple cycle mode,
<b>usually</b> the IGV schedule (program) is the same as in combined cycle mode when exhausting into an
HRSG. UNLESS the HRSG can't tolerate the maximum GT exhaust temperatures in which case the turbine control
system is programmed to limit exhaust temperature (which also limits load).
 41
And, then you add the GE Belfort factor into the mix which can change anything and everything--or nothing.

Exhaust Temp Spread Trip after Selecting IGV Temp Match

Our Gas turbine (7 Fa Dln2.6 Mark VI) trips on high exhaust temperature spread after selecting IGV Temp
Matching (transferring from SC into CC).

After selecting Matching ON, spreads #1, 2, and 3 start increasing fast. After selecting Matching OFF, spread
return to normal levels.
There are also some other alarms at the same time like:

1. Combustion Trouble
2. Correcting TNR Drift on IGV Temp Match
3. TNR outside IGV Temp Match range trip TM

This problem happened after changing the IBH Control valve due to mechanical issue (Stuck). After the change,
I&C calibrated the feedback. Also I&C tuned the CTIM sensor.

We reported the issue to GE, and first they recommended I&C to calibrate IGV, SRV, Pm1, pm2, pm3, pm4.

This calibration didn't solve the problem. After that GE recommended to change some constant values (sorry I am
not what they were).

All the constant values were changed according to GE recommendation but still the problem has not been
resolved. Any idea please?
 Explain how the unit transitions from Simple Cycle to Combined Cycle modes. Does it have an exhaust bypass
stack, with a damper or diverter that has to change position to re-direct the exhaust flow from the bypass stack to
the HRSG? Is this happening before or after you are changing from Simple- to Combined Cycle?

What is the TNR--and load--when you are trying to put the unit into Temperature Matching?

What TNR--and load--was the unit at BEFORE the IBH control valve was changed and Temperature Matching
was being enabled? In other words, is the operation of the unit being changed for some reason since the IBH
control valve was changed--and, if so, why?

What is the temperature differential Temperature Matching is trying to achieve? Is it trying to raise the steam
temperature, or lower the steam temperature?

Is the unit being operated on Pre-Selected Load Control while all of this is going on?

What kind of sensor is used for the axial compressor inlet temperature measurement? (The only sensors I've ever
seen used are Type K thermocouples--which don't require any field calibration....)

Did you ask this question of a local GE field service person, or of the vaunted GE PAC (Power Answer Center)?
Not that it matters--because, again, one can't calibrate any device or servo. The ONLY "thing" that gets calibrated
with AutoCalibrate is LVDT feedback--which has <b>ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING
OTHER THAN LVDT FEEDBACK.</b> LVDT calibration has nothing to do with valve gain, or stability (unless
there is a problem with the LVDTs). LVDT feedback has absolutely nothing to do with exhaust temperature
spreads. And, if you no one checked the LVDT calibration (by comparing the indicated position against the actual
position (at the device) before AutoCalibrating the "devices" then how does anyone know if the LVDT calibration
was correct or not? How does anyone know if the LVDT feedback needed to be re-calibrated? Where there
Diagnostic Alarms indicating "device" position trouble or LVDT troubles (other than the IBH before it was
replaced)?

It's just ludicrously insane to waste time "calibrating" IGVs, or the SRV, or PM1, or PM2 or PM3 or PM4--because
AutoCalibrate does NOTHING to the IGVs or the SRV or PM1 or PM2 or PM3 or PM4--or the servos associated
 42
with those devices. The <b>ONLY</b> thing AutoCalibrate changes is the scaling of the LVDT feedback from
those devices. And if nothing was done to change the physical stroke of those devices, or the LVDTs weren't
touched, then performing AutoCalibration "of" those devices doesn't do anything at all--except waste valuable
time. And, this advice came from the OEM--which says volumes about the knowledge and training of their staff.

The alarm messages related to Temperature Matching ("TM") are trying to tell you that the unit is outside the
allowable range when temperature matching can be used. It can't be used at any load, or any TNR; Temperature
Matching can only be used in a certain range of TNR (load).

And, if the exhaust flow is undergoing huge changes in direction and back-pressure at the time the unit is trying to
change from Simple- to Combined Cycle--and the unit is trying to go into temperature matching all at the same
time, well it's probably going to trip.

Without knowing what Control Constants GE told you to change and why they told you to change them and what
they were changed from and to it's practically impossible to comment on the effect that might have had on the unit.
But, if this is coming from the same GE source that told you to "calibrate" the IGVs, and the SRV, and PM1 and
PM2 and PM3 and PM4--it's no wonder it's not working.

Again, we don't know what's happening when the unit is transitioning from Simple- to Combined Cycle. And all
that happens in the Mark* is that the IGVs are being used to try to maximize exhaust temperature when the unit is
at Part Load. And, Temperature Matching is trying to control exhaust temperature to a VERY different setpoint in
an effort to try to limit steam temperature to protect the steam turbine. In some cases, it MIGHT be trying to raise
the steam temperature, but that would be an extreme case, in my opinion, when the steam turbine and steam piping
is already warm, very warm.

Hopefully you can see that the two (Simple/Combined Cycle and Temperature Matching) can be mutually
exclusive. One might be trying to raise the exhaust temperature as high as possible while the other is trying to limit
or reduce exhaust temperature.

Further, exhaust temperature spreads have been covered MANY times before on control.com. It's HIGHLY
UNLIKELY--nigh on impossible--that any valve or the IGVs is going to cause any problem with a small, particular
group of exhaust T/Cs. If the output of the SRV supplies the PM1/PM2/PM3/PM4 valves, and they in turn supply
the PM1, PM2, PM3 and PM4 manifolds which in turn feed the combustion can fuel nozzles (and there are
multiple nozzles in each of the combustors)--how can any gas fuel valve cause a problem with a small group of
exhaust T/Cs??? They can't. Anyone with any basic understanding of how the fuel system is constructed and works
would know that the "advice" to "calibrate" the fuel control valves to try to resolve and exhaust temperature spread
problem is categorically wrong and a waste of time--and any money spent obtaining that advice. If one fuel control
valve, or all the fuel control valves, has(have) a problem--it's going to affect ALL the exhaust thermocouples--not
just a small few.

The same goes for "calibrating" the IGVs. Since the "outlet" of the IGVs feeds the rest of the axial compressor,
which goes into the combustion wrapper and makes a 180-degree turn, enters the combustor flow sleeves and
makes another 180-degree turn and then enters the combustion liners--how can the IGVs cause a problem with a
small group of exhaust T/Cs??? They can't.

My best guesstimate is that the exhaust gas flow is being re-directed from a bypass stack to the HRSG through
some kind of diverter or damper and the unit is being put into Combined Cycle mode at the same time it's being put
into Temperature Matching--at some load which is outside the allowable range of Temperature Matching--and all
of these things are combining to cause combustion mode changes and IGV angkle changes (and likely IBH position
changes) and all of this is likely causing the flame in one or most combustors (without a flame detector--remember,
only a limited number of cans have flame detectors!) to be extinguished, which is causing a REAL exhaust
temperature spread problem which is tripping the turbine.

But, re-scaling LVDT feedback--when it probably didn't need re-scaling to begin with--<b>IS NOT</b> going to
solve the problem, which is likely a real combustion trouble problem causing the flame in one or more combustors
 43
to be extinguished (or to flash back--which is REALLY BAD!!!) which is causing the trip. (And the results of
the "calibrations" speak for themselves--they did nothing to solve the problem!)

Please write back with the requested information if you want more help. We need to understand how the unit
operates (specifically if it has a bypass exhaust stack and some means of re-directing exhaust gas flow from the
stack to the HRSG), and what TNR and load the unit was previously put into Temperature Matching at (meaning
before the IBH change-out and these problems all started happening), and what TNR and load it's currently being
put into Temperature Matching at, and if the unit was in Simple- or Combined Cycle mode when Temperature
Matching was enabled previously. Also, we need to know if when Temperature Matching is being enable if the
exhaust temperature needs to go up or down to achieve the desired steam temperature.

And we need to know what values were changed--from and to.

Lots of questions--but, the real problem sounds most like the unit is just "going crazy" between being transitioned
from a bypass stack to an HRSG, and being switched from Simple- to Combined Cycle mode and being put into
Temperature Matching all at or very near the same time, and it's changing combustion modes very rapidly and
some flame in some combustors is being lost--or there is a flash back situation--which is causing a real combustion
problem which is causing the unit to be tripped on excessive exhaust temperature spread. And if the operators are
doing this, then that says a LOT about the operations staff training and supervision.

You need help--we need more information. Lots more information.

And, ignore that stuff about "calibrating" devices when it's given in relation to exhaust temperature spreads. It's
horribly bad advice.
 At the time I retired, temperature matching on FA & FB GE gas turbines with no dampers involved a 2-step
process:

First, with a cold HRSG, limit the GT exhaust temperature to whatever the HRSG vendor specified for initial
warmup.

Second, raise the exhaust temperature to 100 degrees F above the steam turbine 1st stage metal temperature or, if
the steam turbine is cold, some low exhaust temperature maybe around 725 F (my memory is getting a little
clouded).

Then, after steam turbine reached inlet pressure control mode, the steam turbine control ramped up the gas turbine
temperature control setpoint to its normal value.

While I don't recall any F class units with dampers there may be some. However, the dampers are not a very
effective means of temperature control of the exhaust gas into the HRSG. They mainly control the flow from the
GT to the HRSG; they don't mix in ambient air into the stream, so the gas temperature doesn't drop much.

I also am curious about calibrating the CTIM sensor. At one time, I recall an RTD being used instead of
thermocouples, but that would not need sensor calibration either, and it wasn't used for control purposes.
Like ReplyReport
 Thank you for joining the thread!

I have heard of a couple of F-class turbines with bypass stacks--but only to allow operation when the steam turbine
and/or HRSG were unavailable. The fact that the unit has Simple Cycle and Combined Cycle modes would seem to
lend credence to that possibility.

Thank you, also, for the information about Temperature Matching. My experiences with Temperature Matching
were all bad ones, because the temperature signal came from the DCS and they were never biased very well, and
assumed the Speedtronic was able to instantaneously change exhaust temperature and hold a temperature
indefinitely regardless of load--all the while the operators and in some cases the DCS were trying to raise gas
turbine load to get into emissions compliance. A huge disaster, usually.
 44

I have also heard of a move to use 4-20 ma transmitters for some measurements, and ones used for CTIM could use
either a T/C or RTD for the sensor. BUT, being a critical parameter for F-class machines one would think there
would be multiple sensors/transmitters for CTIM, feeding a Parallel Transmitter Selector block to derive CTIM. Or
maybe there is a transmitter with multiple inputs and a selector function for a single output. I have also heard The
General is using Profibus for some signal circuits.

In any case, the original poster has been pretty good about responding with most of the requested information, so
we'll have to wait and see.

Again, thank you for the benefit of your experience and knowledge! It's always much appreciated!!!
 Otised, I am very happy that you have joined the thread. Wishing to learn from your experience.

CSA, As always you are willing to help others solve their issues. Sorry It took may a while to gather the
information you have asked for, since I'm out of the plant these days. There is a lot going on related to this issue so
please let me describe it in my best way.

First, Yes the turbine is equipped with a diverter damper to allow it to run on either SC or CC. Even when we start
the unit from turning gear using CC(Combined Cycle Mode), when Temperature Matching is enabaled, there will
be a high spread when burning GAS

To describe how The Diverter Damper Equipped Gas Turbine operates when CC mode is selected from the
beginning, please read:

Gas turbine will go through purging then fires and accelerates up to FSNL. The operator will select "Preselected
Load" and loads the turbine up to 20 MW. Still up to this point the diverter damper is closed to the HRSG and open
to the Bypass Stack. After the turbine reaches 20 MW, Temperature Matching is enabled. Once Matching is ON,
IGV will open and IBH will close to "drive" the exhaust temperature down to 370 Degrees Celsius. Once 370
degrees is achieved the diverter damper is allowed to open to 70 Degrees (There are some permissives for the
diverter damper to open and one of these permissives is the exhaust temperature has to be 370 Degrees). So the
diverter damper will be at 70 Degrees for 10 Minutes, then it will fully open.

The load at which TM is enabled after replacing the IBH Valve is 20 MW and TNR is 100.7 % and The Droop
Speed Setting is 4% (Base Load is around 160 MW). Sorry still I couldn't get the TNR before IBH Replacment
since I'm out of the plant these days.

The constants GE requested to change are Tuning Control for IGV and GCVs like FXKPM1S1, FXKPM3S2, etc.

Why they requested this ? Because the same unit trips on LBO (Lean Blowout) when transferring into 6Q mode at
approximately 95 MW. The Cans that experience LBO are 10,11, and 12. And "these are the same Cans that the
spread is coming from when selecting Temperature Matching On"

GE have done tuning and now the turbine transitions into 6Q Mode without LBO problem. But still now the
spreads are coming when TM is enabled while burning gas.

ONE IMPORTANT NOTE: If TM on is enabled while burning LIQUID FUEL, there will be NO SPREADS.
 Forgot to mention something.

CSA, you are right. The CTIM sensor is a K Type Thermocouple. There are 3 of them at each GT. There are not
calibrated ones as you have mentioned. The one who gave me the information about CTIM Tuning was incorrect.

 Thanks for the information, but there is still much we don't know.
 45
When did this problem with the LBO (Lean Blow-Out) and high exhaust temperature spread during TM
(Temperature Matching) begin? Has it been ongoing since commissioning (when was commissioning, by the way)?
Did it start after a maintenance outage--was it the recent outage to replace the IBH control valve?

So, the unit does have a diverter damper, but the location/operation of the damper is not clear. GE-design heavy
duty F-class gas turbines have what are termed 'axial flow exhaust'--meaning that they exhaust in a direction
parallel with the axis of the unit. Where is the diverter damper in relation to the axis of the unit? Does it swing
horizontally left and right to redirect the exhaust flow to the bypass stack or the HRSG?

Where, exactly, are these exhaust T/Cs which always indicate the "spread"--and are they always indicating higher
temperatures than the average of the remaining exhaust T/Cs, or are they indicating lower exhaust temperatures
than the average of the remaining exhaust T/Cs when the unit is going through Temperature Matching?

Has this high spread problem always been a problem for this unit, or did it just start, and if it just recently started,
can you relate the beginning of the problem to some activity? A CI? A HGPI? A MI? Were the fuel nozzles
replaced during the activity?

Does the unit have Combustion Dynamics Monitoring equipment?

Was some work done in the exhaust duct during an outage just around the time the exhaust temp spread problem
began?

As for why GE makes changes to fuel splits--they have some pretty sophisticated software that can analyze
emissions and combustion dynamics to recommend small changes which can help improve emissions and
combustion dynamics. They have HUGE amounts of empirical data they have accumulated over time, which they
can use to fine tune the DLN systems. GE likes to promote the idea that DLN is a mature technology--that it is
established, stable, proven and has been for a long time. The reality is that they are constantly making small
adjustments and changes to various hot gas path components--ALL the time. Some are the result of analyzing a
LOT of data, and others are science projects, which don't always work out as planned. So, this idea of a mature
technology isn't exactly 100% correct or true. Yes; it's been around for a long time on many, many machines. But,
when they keep making changes to hardware, even small ones, some of which are not fully proven, the technology
isn't stable and fixed.

Since your site has F-class machines, it's a safe bet it has a LTSA agreement with the OEM, and they are
"responsible" for the hardware installed in the machines during any outage. And, they use this leverage to do their
testing--sometimes with the knowledge of the site operations and management, other times not. And, even if
someone in the plant O&M staff know about the new hardware, they don't communicate it down to the rest of the
staff. And, sometimes, GE even has site personnel sign NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreements) when new hardware is
installed and tested--to protect their IP (Intellectual Property).

Fuel nozzle sets are all tested in the factory (new, or refurbished) and have a range of flow-rates that are allowed.
Further, sets of fuel nozzles are put together based on their flow-rate test results to try to limit any flow-rate
differences to certain ranges (lower differences usually result in lower spreads immediately after installation, and
long term when the fuel is clean). But, some nozzles are at the high end of the allowable flow range, and others are
at the low end of the allowable flow range--and if great care is not used when deciding where to place nozzles in
the machine low-flow nozzles can be placed next to high-flow nozzles and that usually results in higher spreads
immediately after installation.

Without a LOT more information--and a visual analysis of the design and operation of the exhaust duct diverter
damper--it's really difficult for me to say what's happening and why. At first, I suspected something amiss with the
exhaust flow patterns in the exhaust duct related to the placement/operation of the diverter damper (and it was just
a suspicion the unit had a bypass stack and diverter damper).

100.7% TNR on a unit with 4% Droop and a rated load of "around" 160 MW, translates to approximately 28 MW
[(0.7/4)*160=28], which is close to 20 MW, but not too close. Operating the unit on Pre-Selected Load Control
 46
is, ..., not my preferred method of operation--ever. It's a poor "crutch" for operators--and their supervisors. And,
without being able to examine the application code running in the Mark* panel it's not clear what happens to the
Pre-Selected Load Control command when TM is enabled. When the IGV are opened during TM (and the IBH
control valve closed), air flow through the unit increases--which leans out the premix air/fuel mixture even more,
which is probably what's causing the LBO event(s). And, if the unit is trying to put control fuel during this time to
maintain some load, that's going to add to the possible problems with combustion.

Complicate this with changes in exhaust duct back-pressure and flow direction/patterns, and there's a lot of
possibilities for problems.

Yeah; the I&C Departments (Instrumentation & Control) are always telling they are "calibrating" this, or
"calibrating" that--when, in actual fact, they are only really verifying the operation of some device. They use
"calibration" interchangeably with "verification"--and, of course, it always gives the impression they are "doing
something" to help solve the problem--even if they don't understand what they are doing (as in the case of
"calibrating" the SRV, or PM1 or PM2 or PM3 or PM4!) or why. Many don't really have good training, and are
given to believing everything they are told without really questioning or trying to understand what they are told.
"Tribal knowledge" and myths and falsehoods are very common in the controls business; it's really an occupational
hazard that's very difficult to avoid.

Finally, there is NO premix combustion happening during liquid fuel operation. And, the liquid fuel flows out of
VERY different orifices than gas fuel, too. The flame is diffusion flame--and is much more stable than the premix
"pilot" diffusion flames when gas fuel is being premixed and combusted. The stoichiometry of combustion for gas
fuel in a DLN combustion is borderline stable to begin with, whereas liquid fuel--burning in a pure diffusion
flame--is pretty stable, especially compared to the gas fuel combustion.

Hope this helps! We would love to follow this problem as you work through the issues, but to be of real help it
would require a LOT more information than you can probably provide in a forum like this. And, often times,
pictures are worth a thousand words--and we can't do pictures here very well. (Yet.) So, keep us informed, and
when we can comment we will.
 I would expect the diverter damper to be located right before the inlet duct to the HRSG. With the damper
pivoting from the top so the damper is swung upwards against the exhaust flow to open the gas path to the HRSG
and close the path to the bypass stack which is on top. This probably means the exhaust gas back pressure is
somewhat unstable during the transition - try and visualize what's going on inside the duct when the diverter
blade is being raised against the gas flow. That gas flow is also corkscrewing in the duct. And this is with a DLN
combustion system that is not exactly known for its stability during transients.

 Great explanation; couldn't have been spoken better!

I'll wager that it (exhaust temperature spreads during diverter damper opening while Temperature Matching is
going on whilst on Pre-Selected Load Control!) was dodgy before some maintenance and/or DLN tuning, or that
some problem has arisen with a combustor or its fuel nozzles due to the failure of the IBH Control Valve. And now
it's finally reached an operational reliability problem.

To my mind, there's an awful lot going on when the diverter damper is moving--or stationary at 70°--perhaps the
diverted damper position indication has drifted and is not as it was before....

Again, I say, there's SO much we don't know about the timeline of this issue and what's been done. We don't know
how recently DLN tuning was done--and why. We don't know how recently a CI or HGPI or MI was performed.
AND, we don't know how much any if the LVDT "calibrations" changed (if at all) after following the OEM's
instructions.

But we do know--the SRV and PM1 and PM2 and PM3 and PM4, and I believe, the IGVs were "calibrated"--
whether they needed it or not, eh? When I hear "instructions" like that, it's clear whoever gave them doesn't have
any bloody idea what's causing the problem--but they want to be perceived as doing "something", even if it's
wrong, to try to solve the problem. OR, they are trying to divert attention from what they do know is causing the
problem.
 47

The more I think about this, the more I think there might be a problem with one or more gas fuel nozzles in a
particular combustors. If there's no spreads when running on liquid fuel, and the spreads always appear in the same
location when running on gas fuel, that's a pretty strong indication of problems in one combustor's fuel nozzles,
made worse by all the changes occurring during transitioning from Simple- to Combined Cycle AND Temperature
Matching and Pre-Selected Load Control--along with any combustion mode transitions which might be happening,
too.

 The location of the diverter damper is exactly as Otised have mentioned. I don't believe the problem is related
to the diverter damper beacause the spreads are happening before the damper opens. In other words, the spread
happens before the exhaust temperature reaches 370 degrees Celsius (which is a permissive for the DD to open).

There has been no work done on the exhaust duct in the previous T&I nor a major work on GT. Only regular
preventive maintenance. The unit was commissioned back in 2008. I can't "exactly" relate this new issue to a
previous event. But there are two main things happened before the spreads came.

1- The unit has been running pretty well since the last T&I, until an increase in the wheelspace temperature
happened. The increase in the wreelspace has not been resolved until an OFFLINE WATER WASH has been done.
The compressor was REALLY dusty before the offline water wash.

2- After the offline water wash (mentioned above) has been performed. The unit started and there was a problem
with the IBH not following and STUCK.

3- After IBH Replacemnt, the unit has been suffering from the two issues mentioned in the thread (1- LBO when
transferring into 6Q mode , 2- High spread when selecting Matching ON). The LBO has been solved by Tuning.

The way our GT behaves when TM is enabled and PRESELECTED LOAD is active is that the Control system will
look to the IBH Valve position, if it is lower than 70 % (say 65 %), the control system will deactivate the
preselected load and decrease the MW automatically until the IBH position is 70% at least. (because as MW
increases, IBH opening should decrease and as MW decreases, IBH opening should increase.)

 The plot thickens....

Thank you for the photos, but they really don't help with my understanding of the problem.

I'm going back to my previous thread and sticking with my assertion that there is something amiss with one or
more fuel nozzles in one combustor and that when the fuel/air mixture gets too lean that flame is being lost on one
or more of the fuel nozzles which are flowing fuel in that combustor at that time.

I have also seen some very bad damage caused to fuel nozzles when the water/detergent from an off-line water
wash wasn't properly purged/drained from the the lines after a wash/rinse and was eventually blown into the
nozzles and caused cracking due to the temperature differential.

You keep saying the IBH was "STUCK"--always in capital letters. I presume, since on F-class machines the IBH
control valve is opened during starting and initial loading that it was stuck OPEN--but you haven't responded to the
question of WHERE it was stuck, open or closed or some mid-stroke position.

And, I'm also going to remind you that fuel nozzles (of which there are at least 70, I believe, in a 7FA unit) can all
have an allowable range of flow, and that sets are put together based on the maximum allowable range of flow, and
that the nozzles are to be installed so that the highest-flowing and the lowest-flowing are NOT in the same
combustor or even in adjacent combustors.

You have said that tuning was necessary because of LBO--which means the fuel flow-rate through some nozzles
was too low to support the diffusion "pilot" flame and they "flamed out" (lost flame) because of the excessive air
flow. Hence the term Lean Blow-Out (LBO)--the flame was very lean and air blew it out.
 48

And, also, as much as the OEM wants to say DLN is a "mature" technology, it really isn't very old. And, it does
have its quirks. "Flame" stability (really, combustion stability) in a DLN combustor is quite difficult to achieve and
to maintain under all operating conditions during starting and loading and unloading and stopping (and DLN-2.6x
systems are in constant premix mode during starting and loading, and unloading, and stopping). The OEM--and
owners of the systems--are continually learning new quirks and idiosyncrasies. And, with the way the OEM
changes compressor configurations and combustion hardware designs all the time it's a wonder there aren't more
problems, actually. At least in DLN-2.6x systems there aren't multiple combustion zones and fuel doesn't have to
be "staged" (switched) from one to another and mixed to achieve premix combustion during loading.

Finally, such a sharp drop in exhaust temperatures in one area of a heavy duty gas turbine <b>IS NOT</b> likely
the result of a control system problem. As you have said, the problem occurs only when operating on gas fuel
(which is premix combustion--very lean, with a small diffusion, pilot flame), and not on liquid fuel--which is pure
diffusion flame and uses entirely different passages in the fuel nozzles than used by gas fuel. (Find the cutaway
drawing of the fuel nozzles in the Operations & Service Manuals provided with the units.)

If you don't want to believe that the problem could be caused by exhaust flow disruptions when the diverter damper
is moving (and the sequence/movements you have described seem specific to your site--I've never encountered
them before), and the LBO problem which SEEMS to have been solved by tuning occurs in the same area of the
exhaust during Temperature Matching, then it seems the problem is something is amiss with one or more of the
fuel nozzles in a particular combustor. Maybe caused by improper washing/rinsing valve line-up.

<b><i>Based on the information provided,</b></i> that's all I can offer in the way of possible causes. NO ONE
likes to hear that spreads are NOT caused by the turbine control system (that damned turbine control system, is,
after all, the root of all evil on a turbine site!)--but they very, Very, VERY rarely are. I know of several sites that
always had high spreads during starting in exactly the same location, and when the unit reached 95% speed (14HS)
the spreads calmly dropped to single digits. ALL of those sites had problems in the exhaust duct--one had put new
diffusers on the compressor bleed valve discharge which directed the flow from the open compressor bleed valves
on to nearby exhaust T/Cs, which resulted in very cool readings. On both gas and liquid fuels. Not a control system
problem--but a self-inflicted problem because the drawings for the new diffusers had not been followed. AND, the
exhaust duct work had been done at nearly the same time the turbine control system had been upgraded to a Mark
VIe. And, the refrain was--for almost two years--"It worked FINE before that Mark VIe was put in there!!!"

I only mention the above because it's so VERY difficult to convince anyone that exhaust temperature spreads are
the result of combustion problems--it just has to be that $%^@ turbine control system!

But, it rarely is (that wonderful turbine control system).

It would be great if you would update us from time to time with the progress and resolution of this problem.
 By the way, it's possible to scale trended signals individually so that the trends are MUCH more
understandable. I believe if you left-click on the signal name, a set of options will appear in the pane in the
lower, left-hand corner of the Trend Recorder window, and you can select the min and max scale values for the
signal. Trend Recorder has a LOT of nice features, and people should, literally, play with it (using a saved trend
file) and get to know how to use it. It's really the very best attribute of the Mark VIe--for operations and for
technicians and for troubleshooting as well as for understanding how things work. I salivate when I get a chance
to work with Trend Recorder--it's very powerful and very configurable. It doesn't do well with historical data,
but it can be set up to start (trigger) on a logic signal, and record data for some time before and after the trigger.
It's all in the Help files for Trend Recorder (which are little more than what's in the Manual; both are pretty good,
actually). Become friends with Trend Recorder; it's very, very helpful and quite useful.
 GE now has recommended to check the fuel nozzles (especially Can#1) using a borescope although I don't
know how they have specified this Particular Can.

Can you put it in another way how you have reached the conclusion of one or more than one of the combustors is
amiss?
 49
As I said, the compressor was really dusty to the point they had to do NINE extra rinses. The usual case would
be only one extra rinse.

The IBH got stuck near the zero position (closed position). You can say around 120 MW. I believe when the unit
was shutdown for Offline Water Wash, the IBH remained in its closed position ( where it should be in a fully open
position).

Thanks and will update you on the borescope findings.

 The subject of exhaust temperature spreads and how they develop has been covered MANY times on
control.com in other threads. And, in this case, GE has used their swirl angle charts to decide which combustor
is having the problem. (And, from anecdotal accounts, it doesn't seem GE is very willing to share their swirl
angle charts with every owner/operator. Sometimes they do; sometimes they don't. Consistently inconsistent--
that's one thing which can always be said about them. ALWAYS.)

Very quickly, when a combustor loses diffusion flame the temperature of the gases in that combustor drop below
the other combustors which still have flame. What isn't obvious is that the cooler temperatures DON'T mix with the
hotter temperatures as the gases pass through the turbine section (through the stationary nozzles and rotating
buckets, and the next set of stationary nozzles and rotating buckets, and so on). Rather, the cool gases stay together
as they pass through the turbine section into the exhaust.

HOWEVER, when the IGV angle is less than fully open the entire gas stream rotates slowly in the direction of
rotation of the turbine. This phenomenon of rotating is called "swirl." Swirl is most pronounced (largest) when IGV
angles are lower, and is less pronounced (smaller) when IGV angles are larger. Swirl angle also depends on IBH,
and fuel flow (to a certain extent), as well as ambient air temperature, and compressor cleanliness (more on that
below). So, what the OEM has done is they have developed swirl angle charts which can be used to determine--
approximately (though with better accuracy as the data used to develop the swirl angle charts improves)--what
combustor is having a problem.

So, it seems their swirl angle chart tells them the problem is located in or near combustor ("can") #1. And, if it's not
#1, then the combustors on either side of #1 should be examined, and so forth spreading out from combustor #1
until the problem is identified.

My conclusion is based on how the combustors work--and how gas streams from the various combustors pass
through the turbine and into the exhaust and what effect that has on the exhaust temperature readings.

Exhaust temperature spreads can virtually NEVER be caused by one of the gas fuel control valves, or the IGVs, or
even the IBH control valve, can cause the diffusion flame in one combustor (or even two combustors, or three) to
be lost--it just can't happen (when running on gas fuel). The fuel from any gas control valve flows into a manifold
which surrounds the axial compressor casing and splits into fourteen combustors (from each control valve) into the
respective fuel nozzles in each combustor. So, it's simply impossible for a single gas fuel control valve to cause one
combustor's fuel nozzles to lose flame--unless there is a problem with the fuel nozzle(s). But, the gas fuel control
valve ISN'T the cause of the problem--it's still something wrong with the fuel nozzle(s). Blockages in the internal
fuel nozzle passages or orifices, or some mysterious enlargement of internal fuel nozzle passages or orifices, cause
the fuel to be improperly atomized and combusted. And, if the fuel flow is restricted, then the fuel/air mixture is
unable to sustain flame.

Now, on to axial compressor cleanliness--and off-line axial compressor water washing. The axial compressor can
get VERY dirty--but that suggests a couple of causes. First, there must be some kind of moisture (humidity) that
helps the airborne contaminants to adhere to the axial compressor components. If the turbine air inlet filters are
located near a busy roadway with lots of diesel lorry traffic the water vapour and particulates in the exhaust will
cause axial compressor fouling. Being located next to a process plant with lots of exhaust (either from a cooling
water tower system, or from the plant process (hydrocarbon vapours, for example)), can also contribute to the
ability of airborne contaminants to adhere to the compressor. And, if it's hydrocarbon vapours and diesel exhaust,
they will stick to the axial compressor themselves. Finally, if the unit uses any kind of inlet air cooling such as
 50
evaporative coolers or foggers then that is a source of humidity that can cause problems, too. Oil leakage from
the #1 bearing housing has also been found to sometimes make it's way into the inlet duct near the bellmouth.

The second thing a very dirty axial compressor suggests is problems with the inlet filters, or the welding of the
seams of the turbine inlet filter structure and/or the inlet duct that connects the turbine inlet filter structure to the
axial compressor inlet compartment. Something is allowing large amounts of dust and airborne contaminants into
the axial compressor. Filters may be ruptured, or improperly installed, or the welding of the seams of the metal
structure and/or inlet ductwork may have been inadequate. Some ductwork can "twist" and warp in hot
environments and increase any gaps between sections, allowing dirt and contaminants into the inlet air stream to
the axial compressor. I have even seen sites operate with the air inlet implosion door opens which allow unfiltered
air to enter the inlet air stream. (There should be limit switches to alert (alarm) on opening of the implosion doors,
but sometimes they stick, and sometimes operators and their supervisors don't understand what the alarm is trying
to tell them, and if the turbine doesn't trip when the implosion doors open, well, then it must not be a severe
problem. Right? (Wrong!) And, not all turbines are configured to trip on open air inlet implosion doors, though it
would seem F-class turbines definitely should, they are such delicate machines.)

Filters are NOT designed to block all types of airborne contaminants (dust; dirt; etc.). They can't. They have ratings
for the size of contaminants (particle size) they can block, and the smaller the particle size the more restrictive the
filter is--meaning less air flow through the filter. And, if the particle size is small, then the filters usually get
choked (plugged; dirty) sooner than filters with a higher particle size. So, choosing a filter should be based on the
types of contaminants on site, and some sites have real problems with very fine sand, or even cement dust. Every
site is different and has unique requirements. So, sometimes it's necessary to work with filter suppliers to find the
right filters for a site.

It's VERY common for off-line washing procedures to be improperly performed. There are a LOT of valves which
mush be manually placed in the proper positions for washing and then manually returned to the proper position for
running. And those valves are usually NOT identified with tags/valve numbers by the
erection/construction/commissioning crew. (I recommend all the handles of manually operated valves which must
be operated during a water wash procedure be painted to make them easy to spot. The valves which should be in an
OPEN position during running should be painted one color, and the valves which should be in the CLOSED
position during running should be painted another color. When preparing for a water wash, one person goes to the
valves which are open and closes them, and the valves which are closed and opens them. When the wash procedure
is complete, the opposite is done--one goes to all the valves to ensure those painted with the OPEN color are, in
fact open, and those painted with CLOSED color are, in fact closed. One person should go out and manually move
the valves prior to the washing--with a second person passing behind, later, to ensure all the valves are in the
washing position. Don't send two people out together to move and inspect the valves at the same time--something
usually gets missed. And, then prior to re-starting the turbine one person goes out and returns all the valves to the
running position, with a second person again going behind--later--to make sure all the valves have been returned to
the running position. Very few chances for problems with this method.)

And, the amount of detergent is also a HUGE factor when performing an off-line compressor washing.
REMEMBER, the detergent manufacturer is recommending the absolute MAXIMUM amount of detergent for
each use--because that way they sell the MAXIMUM amount of detergent. And, LOTS of detergent causes LOTS
of sudsing and bubbles, and greatly increases the amount of rinses required. And, if the compressor isn't properly
rinsed of detergent, the residue can also cause increased fouling....

So, it's NOT recommended to use the manufacturer's recommended amount of detergent when washing, AND, it's
necessary to completely, properly rinse after every washing--no matter HOW LONG nor HOW MUCH water it
requires.(I always recommend starting with one-fourth of the manufacturer's recommendation, but not more than
one-third.) And, if, after an inspection of the IGVs and initial stages of the compressor after rinsing is complete
reveal insufficient cleaning, then perform another wash--but, again, NOT using the manufacturer's recommended
solution. And, performing another proper rinse. And, the amount of detergent ALWAYS impacts the length of the
rinse and the amount of rinse water.
 51
AND, proper soaking after the detergent is applied is also very critical. Too little time for the detergent to do its
magic and it doesn't work very well.

There are MANY factors to properly performing an off-line axial compressor water wash.

Lots of details, which don't always seem obvious at first, but which can become painfully obvious if people aren't
observant and diligent. And, has been said--if water/detergent gets trapped in piping low-points and not properly
drained before re-starting, then eventually when the flow through that section of piping gets high enough the
water/detergent will eventually be moved to some combustor--either through the fuel nozzles or the atomizing air
piping or the compressor discharge. And water is MUCH cooler than the metal in the combustor, and can cause
damage. And when this happens, it doesn't usually get blasted into EVERY combustor, but a small few. And, it
doesn't take much water (a few litres) to cause problems.

By the way, compressor cleanliness doesn't have much of an effect on swirl angle--but it does restrict air flow,
similar to closing the IGVs. It's not generally considered a big factor in determining swirl angle, but neither should
it be discounted if the compressor is REALLY dirty. It might only change the swirl angle by a few degrees, at
most.

Hope this helps!!! And we are looking forward to hearing the results of the borescope inspection, too. Thank you
for keeping us informed of the progress of resolving this issue.

GE Gas turbine
I am working with GE frame 9E with Markv control. My query is

1.what is the difference between base load & peak load.

2.In case machine's are running in base load, sudden dip in frequecy machine will respond?

3.During peak load what will be TTXM (Approx). during base load mostly it is 567*C in our machine.

4.During peak load CPD 0r CPR biased exhaust temp control will active or IGV Exhaust temp control will acive?
 Peak Load allows the turbine-generator to produce more power than at Base Load--but that comes at a cost to
the parts life of the hot gas path section (nozzles, combustion liners, transition pieces, buckets (blades), etc.).
Base Load (CPD- or CPR-biased exhaust temperature control) is calculated to optimize power output AND hot
gas path parts life. Peak Load adds a few degrees to the "firing" temperature (not FLAME temperature, but the
temperature of the gases leaving the first-stage turbine nozzle of a Frame 9E) by increasing the TTRX value
above the Base Load value.

2. This is a "dirty little secret" of gas turbines. When they are operating on CPD- or CPR-biased exhaust
temperature control and the frequency decreases (which means the speed of the gas turbine and its axial
compressor decreases), the power output of the unit actually DECREASES. This is because air flow through the
unit decreases which causes CPD to decrease and firing temperature and exhaust temperature to increase--and if
the unit is operating on exhaust temperature control, it can't put any more fuel into the unit. Droop speed control
only works up to the point that the unit goes on exhaust temperature control.

So the answer is no; when an unit is operating on CPD- or CPR-biased exhaust temperature control (Base Load OR
Peak Load), it will not respond in a positive manner to a drop in frequency--in fact, it will aggravate the situation,
as a certain Southeast Asian peninsula discovered a few years back....

3. TTXM will be just a few degrees higher when operating at Peak Load--how much depends on how the unit is
configured. But, IN GENERAL, in degrees F, TTXM goes up by about 10 deg F when load is increased from Base
Load to Peak Load.

4. Peak Load is just an "elevated" CPD- or CPR-biased exhaust temperature control curve--it's supposed to mirror
(or be parallel to) the Base Load exhaust temperature control curve, but be just slightly greater the Base Load
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curve. When unit is operating on Base Load or Peak Load, the IGVs MUST be fully open. IGV Exhaust
Temperature Control is only used at part load to maximize exhaust temperature on units exhausting into an HRSG
(Heat Recovery Steam Generator), also known as combined cycly mode.

 Dear mr markvguy
im working on a ge frame9e gas turbines.
what are the differences between CPD and CPR biased exhaust temperature control?
how can i know wther my machines are in CPD or CPR control?

just as u said that GTs will not respond in a positive manner for a drop in frequency, my question is that what can
be done in such a condition to make sure that the machines and system are stable?

btw may i know what is TTXM?

thx in adv
 TTXM is nothing but turbine exhaust temperature.
Sometimes in low abmbient conditions the IGV is partly opened because higher pressure ratios can be reached in
these conditions and more work can be extracted for less mass flow rate due to high efficiency of gas turbines in
low ambient temperatures. Hence when the ambient temperature is low, to get the same output (equal to design
point), the mass flow rate of air is reduced by partly closing IGV (say 65 to 80 Degrees open).

TTRXB Temperature Control

I am an operator of GE 9E gas turbine and want to know why the temperature reference ttrxb while starting the
unit and after synch is constant about 610 c? Related to thermodynamic relations it shouldn't be constant while
firing temperature changes? and after transferring to temp control it decreases gradually until it equals ttxm. what
are the parameters affecting ttrxb before reaching temp control and after that??
 There have been many posts about exhaust temperature control on control.com. There is a cleverly-hidden
'Search' field at the far right of the Menu bar of every control.com webpage. (It's recommended to use the Help
function to learn the syntax of search entries.)

TTRXB is <b>NOT</b> Base Load Exhaust Temperature Control--contrary to popular belief. Is is Speed-Biased
Exhaust Temperature Control, used mostly only for two-shaft GE-design heavy duty gas turbines. It just happens
that when the speed bias is not enable, TTRXB is exactly the same as TTRX, which <b>IS</b> Exhaust
Temperature Control Reference.

The exhaust temperature control reference is actually a limit on the maximum allowable exhaust temperature for
any operating condition. And, the limit is a straight line, or sometimes two or more straight lines, with negative
slopes. The maximum allowable exhaust temperature for ANY operating condition is what's termed the Isothermal
Limit, TTKn_I, or TTKI_[n]. Usually that value is approximately 1100 deg F for most GE-design Frame 9E heavy
duty gas turbines. When CPD (or CPR for newer units) exceeds TTKn_C, or TTKC_[n], the exhaust temperature
value begins to decrease from TTKn_I (TTKI_[n]).

So, for all operating conditions up to TTK0_C, or TTKC_[0], the maximum allowable exhaust temperature will be
TTK0_I, or TTKI_[n]. And, then TTRX will start to decrease as CPD (or CPR for newer units) increases.

Actually, TTXM is increased until it equals TTRX as the unit is loaded. For units with IGV Exhaust Temperature
Control (including DLN combustor-equipped units), the IGVs are held closed to maximum exhaust temperature
(but never above TTRX), and when the IGVs are at maximum operating angle (CSKGVMAX) and TTXM equal
TTRX the unit is deemed to be on Exhaust Temperature Control (CPD-, or CPR-, biased exhaust temperature
control).
 what are the parameters affecting ttrxb before reaching temp
control and after that??

TTRXB>>>>>>>>Speed biased temp control reference.

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 I am very thankful for you csa for your perfect answer. if you please I still have some confusion. when the
unit reached temp control, do the controller try to make firing temp const?? Does If cpd increase or decrease due
to changing in ambient like in summer and winter, firing temp will change??
 The sloped portion of the exhaust temperature control "curve" represents constant firing temperature. So, when
the unit is operating at Base Load (on the curve with the IGVs at maximum operating angle) firing temperature
is constant. For a GE-design Frame 9E heavy duty gas turbine, firing temperature is the temperature of the hot
gases leaving the first stage turbine nozzle.

As ambient temperature changes CPD (and CPR) will also vary, which will cause TTRX to vary--but firing
temperature will remain constant (when operating at Base Load, with the IGVs at maximum operating angle).
 Yes it does, you missed this bit in CSA's answer "When CPD (or CPR for newer units) exceeds TTKn_C, or
TTKC_[n], the exhaust temperature value begins to decrease from TTKn_I (TTKI_[n]).

So, for all operating conditions up to TTK0_C, or TTKC_[0], the maximum allowable exhaust temperature will be
TTK0_I, or TTKI_[n]. And, then TTRX will start to decrease as CPD (or CPR for newer units) increases."

So,as CPD changes, TTRX changes trying to linearise Firing Temp. Remember as CPD changes, cooling air flows
will change and slightly change the relationship between Exhaust Temp. and Firing Temp.
 Thank you very much CSA, Glenmorangie for your reply and your time.

but i hope you patient with my questions. in our plant we have 8 units, 4 with standard combustion and the other 4
with dln upgrade. already igv control is different from standard to dln. in dln it's atemp control. so in state of
preselect load suppose 100Mw igv closes to roughly 60 trying to make ttxm very close to ttrx, with comparison to
standard we find igv fully open 84 at the same load 100mw.

so the question is how the turbine can give the same load at standard and dln while the mass flow of air is less in
dln? i think in order to make this fuel consumption in dln should be more than standard at the same load in order to
make up the effect of igv closing. because work from turbine = m*cp*delta T (ttrf-ttxm), ttrf in dln at the same load
should be more higher to make delta T higher.

So our gentlemen is my perception about this point as i explain above right??

 The IGVs are used for very different purposes on the two types of machines--those with conventional
combustors and those with DLN combustors. It's incorrect to assume GE is not correctly controlling the two
types of GE-design Frame 9E heavy duty gas turbines simply because the IGVs appear to operate differently.

Ge-design Frame 9E heavy duty gas turbines with conventional combustors may use the IGVs to maximize exhaust
temperature for steam production at part load, while those with DLN combustors use the IGVs to control air flow
to maximize the load range available in Premix Steady State combustion mode.

In reality, the IGV control schemes are very similar when being used to maximize exhaust temperature in GE-
design Frame 9E machines--but because of the very different types of combustors it can appear to be different.

But, again: It's incorrect to assume GE is not aware of the different requirements of the two types of combustion
systems used on Frame 9Es and is not properly controlling the IGVs for each type of combustor because the
operation appears to be different.