Rorate readers will be aware of the groundbreaking interview Kevin J.
Symonds conducted with Fr. Murr for the October 2020 issue of Inside the Vatican, which was also
published at Rorate
on October 10. Interested readers may want to read that interview first in
order to gain more understanding of context for the present one, which was done once again for Inside the Vatican.
In the previous interview, Fr. Murr told us about his friendship with
Mother Pascalina Lehnert, the “right hand” of Pope Pius XII for several
decades. In addition to this discussion, Fr. Murr made some notable
revelations about what was going on at the Vatican in the 1960s, and 1970s.
The interview below follows up on these revelations with the theme of “where
do we go from here?”
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Cardinal Baggi (L) and Cardinal Benelli (R)
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“BY THEIR FRUITS YOU SHALL KNOW THEM”:
KEVIN SYMONDS’ SECOND INTERVIEW WITH FR. CHARLES MURR
ITV: Thank you, Fr. Murr, for sitting down again with Inside the Vatican. In our previous interview, you spoke of your association with Cardinal
Edouard Gagnon and Msgr. Mario Marini. These two men worked closely with the Sostituto
of the Secretariat of State, Cardinal Benelli. You yourself, however, did
not enjoy the same association with Cardinal Benelli...
I was twenty-four years-old when I met and became friends with the newly
appointed minutante in the Vatican Secretariat of State, Monsignor
Mario Marini. Soon after, Marini introduced me to another extraordinary man
who would play a major role in my life, his good friend, Archbishop Edouard
Gagnon (1918–2007). Gagnon and Marini were respected friends and confidants of
Archbishop Giovanni Benelli (Sostituto of the Secretary of State); I
was not part of that inner circle. I knew Benelli, of course, and spoke with
him many times, but I knew my place. Once, on Lago di Bracciano I was at table
with him and Monsignors [Guillermo] Zanoni and Marini. I remember talking as
little as possible. With Benelli, I knew my place and kept it.
Why did you think of your relationship with Benelli in this way?
To begin with, Giovanni Benelli was Giovanni Benelli! He was one of the most
powerful men on earth; brilliant, a strategizer and deal-maker
par excellence, the #1 Vatican diplomat, a man on familiar terms with
popes and princes, patriarchs and presidents, world leaders of all sorts. I,
on the other hand, was a greenhorn American student of philosophy; absolutely
no one of consequence. Those special times that I was privileged to be in
Benelli’s company were times I knew I was in the presence of greatness.