Perfectly happy to pay artists for their work; entirely unwilling to pay the scum that aggregate and charge for access to that art, with countless strings attached.
If it becomes impossible to make a living as an artist, the only people becoming creatives will be the kids of rich people. Mummy and daddy can pay for them to spend 10 years flouncing around Hollywood, making loss making tv shows, or whatever before they stand a chance of being paid enough. Already a huge problem.
If only rich people are making art, it’s inevitable that mass culture will be dominated by the ideology and beliefs of out of touch rich people. If you want culture that criticizes the status quo, you need more poor or working class kids in the creative sector.
This being said, my pension plan is a rope, so I’m quite happy pirating rather than paying for luxuries. Especially if I’m stealing from a company that engages in wage theft, avoids paying tax, etc. If anything it then becomes perfectly moral.
But if you have some spare money, go support artists and creatives who deserve it.
That’s already happening: just look at the origins of top British musicians and actors now vs 3 decades ago - the age of stars hailing from the working class like David Bowie and Michael Caine is well and truly gone.
Like many other things, the filtering out of anybody not from the upper middle and upper class happens very early on and often even upstream from them starting their careers: it’s simply not affordable for them to go live in the places were things like good theatre academies and the best opportunities are, especially with the insane housing costs there.
On top of that there’s also the heavy nepotism and cronyism in those environments, especially theatre, so somebody not from that environment already and whose parents don’t “know somebody who knows somebody” there are pretty much screwed.
Losing money to piracy is well behind those things in affecting working class kids’ chances at making it big in the arts, especially given that the stage at which they are being blocked from progressing is one where they’re not famous and make most of their money from live performances, were piracy has no effect or can even have a positive effect if it helps make them more known as artists.
Mind you, I think it’s the morally right thing to do to pay those who need the money when you enjoy the product of their work, directly and bypassing the industry leeches which just leverage their control of distribution to extract rents, I just disagree with your theory that it’s somehow relevant for the arts being accessible for people not from well off origins, since my own observations when I had some contact with that world back in the UK and being interested in the subject also read about it, were that the causes of the massive fall in people from the working class in the arts in the UK were a cross between broad structural problems that pretty much stopped social mobility in general there and the nature of the arts as a very tough area were a handful of people make most of the money whilst the vast majority of artist spend years trying and failing barely capable to survive (nowadays not at all unless they have the bank of mommy and daddy to support them).
Paying artists for their work, especially when there’s not enough food for everyone, is capitalist bullshit that perpetuates and is perpetuated by letting rich people dominate society. Your post makes the problem worse by not expressing any loss of respect for artists who enrich themselves while others starve.
If Eminem read your reply, he’d probably take it as a sign his low income background makes it OK for him to be so famous we both know him, while other people are starving to death and other artists have zero audience - but you’re trying to twist it the other way around, like rocket launching him into capitalist mental illness is actually keeping things grounded or something.
That’s how you get a society where people like Eminem aren’t organizing to overthrow Trump, because instead of the situation being “I’m known and paid as an artist for the useful stuff I do in that position aside from art,” the situation is “anything useful I do aside from art will detract from my career as an artist so I should just shut up and be less political, at least less political than organizing a revolution.”
If someone doesn’t care enough about art to do it when it’s hard, their opinion isn’t more valuable than mine just because they’re poorer than me.
I have been homeless before and probably will again because I have a spine - people who waste their lives doing whatever corporations tell them, do not have more valuable opinions than me just because they have less money than me.
It would be more reasonable if no one paid artists for their work until there was enough food for everyone, and art had to come from people like me who can afford to do it regardless of how much money we have, because we’d rather face stuff like homelessness than waste our lives. That’s how you would get a society that isn’t culturally dominated by capitalist bullshit.
Then I’d be making money for the useful stuff I do instead of facing possible homelessness, Eminem would be making money for the useful stuff he does including making any political statements he wants instead of staying quiet to get paid for music, and Trump wouldn’t be a topic.
Edited this comment a lot. Made it too long. Removed one angry paragraph because all the paragraphs are too angry as it is. Sorry.
Thing is, it literally takes forever to create art. I’m a musician. How much time do I spend making music? All of it that’s available. One lifetime isn’t enough. Infinite lifetimes wouldn’t be enough - there’s no end to creativity, it’s never done. You can’t just dabble in it for fun - it’s not about fun, though it can be enjoyable. Practising is every day forever.
I don’t care about money at all beyond meeting my basic needs, but there’s no way to support my family from any of my creative activities (which I do sometimes get paid for) under capitalism.
You can’t imagine how much practise is required. I can’t imagine it because it’s impossible to fully comprehend, like trying to tangibly imagine infinity.
Capitalism wants people like me to be the full-time servants of the wealthy. Capitalism and art can’t coexist, not ultimately. You can’t understand this unless you’ve spent your life making art. Have you? Sorry, I doubt it.
For a few weeks a year I participate in some events where I get to be fully a musician for the benefit of a community who support the musicians who make the events happen. That’s the way. It’s not about money, just that art takes forever and people gotta eat.
There’s no reason not to be living like that all the time except capitalism says get back to Real Work™.
But… making art is infinite work already!
No wonder a lot of artists and musicians go crazy and end themselves.
Idk what to tell you man, if you’re not growing food or cooking food or doing anything for the people that grow and cook food except be competition for the other art they could enjoy or make, then people probably shouldn’t be giving you money until they can figure out how to organize a society that produces enough food for everyone
Also, you only feel pressured to get incomprehensibly infinite practice because you made it about money. I haven’t practiced piano in forever or directly used my piano skill for any of the music I’ve made, and I’ve never heard any music better than what friends have played for me after mere portions of mere human lifetimes of practice on their instruments, back when I had friends.
If you have friends, no level of virtuosity you reach or money you make should ever be as meaningful as time you’ve spent jamming or even just listening to music with them
I repeat, it’s not about money at all. It’s not about virtuosity either (no chance). Neither is it about competition, fuck that noise. Music is just what I do. It’s not my hobby, it is life, like breathing. That is the artist’s struggle - it’s in you and it’s got to come out. It’s not an optional activity!
Of course I do lots of other things too and have grown food - though not currently, got burned too many times from having to leave rented properties after I set up the garden. I will do more growing for sure.
I spend most of my time alive looking after other people, which also doesn’t help me afford to eat. I cook and clear up most days.
Pro tip: don’t have disabled family members! /s
Exchanging time alive, or art, for money is a fucking scam which we’re deliberately artificially pushed into. We’re not supposed to be able to make it - I’ve given up on anything like that but I still have to make music.
I didn’t mention virtuousity. Practise is just forever, because creativity is practical, in the doing. It doesn’t matter what happened yesterday. Breathing yesterday won’t keep me alive today.
I wish I had time to jam with friends but unfortunately it’s rare. I guess I appreciate it more when it happens.
But it could be every day, alongside growing food and looking after each other in a community. This is legal but effectively impossible under capitalism unless someone is well-off and able-bodied to begin with.
Anyway I sense we’re on the same team and not arguing over much. I’m just a permanently frustrated musician because there could never ever be enough time alive for it. That’s the struggle, and it used to be manageable but increasingly is not. Fascism kils art.
Perfectly happy to pay artists for their work; entirely unwilling to pay the scum that aggregate and charge for access to that art, with countless strings attached.
I don’t even get why pay artists for their work at times like this. Seems like that should be for times when there’s enough food for everyone.
Easy for me to say as someone with enough food to do art as a hobby, but still
If it becomes impossible to make a living as an artist, the only people becoming creatives will be the kids of rich people. Mummy and daddy can pay for them to spend 10 years flouncing around Hollywood, making loss making tv shows, or whatever before they stand a chance of being paid enough. Already a huge problem.
If only rich people are making art, it’s inevitable that mass culture will be dominated by the ideology and beliefs of out of touch rich people. If you want culture that criticizes the status quo, you need more poor or working class kids in the creative sector.
This being said, my pension plan is a rope, so I’m quite happy pirating rather than paying for luxuries. Especially if I’m stealing from a company that engages in wage theft, avoids paying tax, etc. If anything it then becomes perfectly moral.
But if you have some spare money, go support artists and creatives who deserve it.
Not that I’m judging anyone.
That’s already happening: just look at the origins of top British musicians and actors now vs 3 decades ago - the age of stars hailing from the working class like David Bowie and Michael Caine is well and truly gone.
Like many other things, the filtering out of anybody not from the upper middle and upper class happens very early on and often even upstream from them starting their careers: it’s simply not affordable for them to go live in the places were things like good theatre academies and the best opportunities are, especially with the insane housing costs there.
On top of that there’s also the heavy nepotism and cronyism in those environments, especially theatre, so somebody not from that environment already and whose parents don’t “know somebody who knows somebody” there are pretty much screwed.
Losing money to piracy is well behind those things in affecting working class kids’ chances at making it big in the arts, especially given that the stage at which they are being blocked from progressing is one where they’re not famous and make most of their money from live performances, were piracy has no effect or can even have a positive effect if it helps make them more known as artists.
Mind you, I think it’s the morally right thing to do to pay those who need the money when you enjoy the product of their work, directly and bypassing the industry leeches which just leverage their control of distribution to extract rents, I just disagree with your theory that it’s somehow relevant for the arts being accessible for people not from well off origins, since my own observations when I had some contact with that world back in the UK and being interested in the subject also read about it, were that the causes of the massive fall in people from the working class in the arts in the UK were a cross between broad structural problems that pretty much stopped social mobility in general there and the nature of the arts as a very tough area were a handful of people make most of the money whilst the vast majority of artist spend years trying and failing barely capable to survive (nowadays not at all unless they have the bank of mommy and daddy to support them).
Paywalls only move this to the consumer:
If art doesn’t make you money, only rich people can make art.
Under the current system, you can make money making art, but only access it if you’re not poor (or pirate it lol).
Either way, much of art becomes an image of the experiences of rich people, either through the artists themselves or the audience.
A more fundamental change is needed if you really want to solve this issue.
If your pension plan is a rope, might I suggest a guillotine instead? or first? Get rid of as many top hoarders as you can.
I remember the looks I got at a goalsetting workshop when they asked, “What would you do if you had six months to live?” and I said, “Killing spree.”
Political violence often back fires.
If it’s your personal retirement plan, does it matter? You’re out of the picture regardless, and it also has been known to succeed.
Nah, that’s all fundamentally wrong.
Paying artists for their work, especially when there’s not enough food for everyone, is capitalist bullshit that perpetuates and is perpetuated by letting rich people dominate society. Your post makes the problem worse by not expressing any loss of respect for artists who enrich themselves while others starve.
If Eminem read your reply, he’d probably take it as a sign his low income background makes it OK for him to be so famous we both know him, while other people are starving to death and other artists have zero audience - but you’re trying to twist it the other way around, like rocket launching him into capitalist mental illness is actually keeping things grounded or something.
That’s how you get a society where people like Eminem aren’t organizing to overthrow Trump, because instead of the situation being “I’m known and paid as an artist for the useful stuff I do in that position aside from art,” the situation is “anything useful I do aside from art will detract from my career as an artist so I should just shut up and be less political, at least less political than organizing a revolution.”
If someone doesn’t care enough about art to do it when it’s hard, their opinion isn’t more valuable than mine just because they’re poorer than me.
I have been homeless before and probably will again because I have a spine - people who waste their lives doing whatever corporations tell them, do not have more valuable opinions than me just because they have less money than me.
It would be more reasonable if no one paid artists for their work until there was enough food for everyone, and art had to come from people like me who can afford to do it regardless of how much money we have, because we’d rather face stuff like homelessness than waste our lives. That’s how you would get a society that isn’t culturally dominated by capitalist bullshit.
Then I’d be making money for the useful stuff I do instead of facing possible homelessness, Eminem would be making money for the useful stuff he does including making any political statements he wants instead of staying quiet to get paid for music, and Trump wouldn’t be a topic.
Edited this comment a lot. Made it too long. Removed one angry paragraph because all the paragraphs are too angry as it is. Sorry.
I want you to try and create something. Just something. Be an artist.
The moment you try selling your work and that’s all that you’re trying to sell on the side to make money and make ends meet.
Then you’ll understand.
Are you genuinely too dumb to understand not all artists are in it for the money, or are you just dishonestly pretending I’ve never created anything?
Removed by mod
Thing is, it literally takes forever to create art. I’m a musician. How much time do I spend making music? All of it that’s available. One lifetime isn’t enough. Infinite lifetimes wouldn’t be enough - there’s no end to creativity, it’s never done. You can’t just dabble in it for fun - it’s not about fun, though it can be enjoyable. Practising is every day forever.
I don’t care about money at all beyond meeting my basic needs, but there’s no way to support my family from any of my creative activities (which I do sometimes get paid for) under capitalism.
You can’t imagine how much practise is required. I can’t imagine it because it’s impossible to fully comprehend, like trying to tangibly imagine infinity.
Capitalism wants people like me to be the full-time servants of the wealthy. Capitalism and art can’t coexist, not ultimately. You can’t understand this unless you’ve spent your life making art. Have you? Sorry, I doubt it.
For a few weeks a year I participate in some events where I get to be fully a musician for the benefit of a community who support the musicians who make the events happen. That’s the way. It’s not about money, just that art takes forever and people gotta eat.
There’s no reason not to be living like that all the time except capitalism says get back to Real Work™.
But… making art is infinite work already!
No wonder a lot of artists and musicians go crazy and end themselves.
Idk what to tell you man, if you’re not growing food or cooking food or doing anything for the people that grow and cook food except be competition for the other art they could enjoy or make, then people probably shouldn’t be giving you money until they can figure out how to organize a society that produces enough food for everyone
Also, you only feel pressured to get incomprehensibly infinite practice because you made it about money. I haven’t practiced piano in forever or directly used my piano skill for any of the music I’ve made, and I’ve never heard any music better than what friends have played for me after mere portions of mere human lifetimes of practice on their instruments, back when I had friends.
If you have friends, no level of virtuosity you reach or money you make should ever be as meaningful as time you’ve spent jamming or even just listening to music with them
I repeat, it’s not about money at all. It’s not about virtuosity either (no chance). Neither is it about competition, fuck that noise. Music is just what I do. It’s not my hobby, it is life, like breathing. That is the artist’s struggle - it’s in you and it’s got to come out. It’s not an optional activity!
Of course I do lots of other things too and have grown food - though not currently, got burned too many times from having to leave rented properties after I set up the garden. I will do more growing for sure.
I spend most of my time alive looking after other people, which also doesn’t help me afford to eat. I cook and clear up most days.
Pro tip: don’t have disabled family members! /s
Exchanging time alive, or art, for money is a fucking scam which we’re deliberately artificially pushed into. We’re not supposed to be able to make it - I’ve given up on anything like that but I still have to make music.
I didn’t mention virtuousity. Practise is just forever, because creativity is practical, in the doing. It doesn’t matter what happened yesterday. Breathing yesterday won’t keep me alive today.
I wish I had time to jam with friends but unfortunately it’s rare. I guess I appreciate it more when it happens.
But it could be every day, alongside growing food and looking after each other in a community. This is legal but effectively impossible under capitalism unless someone is well-off and able-bodied to begin with.
Anyway I sense we’re on the same team and not arguing over much. I’m just a permanently frustrated musician because there could never ever be enough time alive for it. That’s the struggle, and it used to be manageable but increasingly is not. Fascism kils art.
If you’ve grown food, I have no criticism. Will read the rest of this a little later, just wanted to reply to that part first