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camael or samael
by nox Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:44 am Recently i made some study on the angels camael and samael and i we realized that in some works are considered to be the same.In the heptameron and the munich manual samael is the angel ruling over Tuesday and Mars but in Agrippa and in The book of celestial intelligences appears to be camael.An other thing that i we found out that these 2 angels appears to be in Armadel .Samael appears in 2 different ways but with their seal almost identical but one has to be summoned on Tuesday an the other on Wednesday. Regarding to camael in the armadel hes seal has an astonishing resemblance with the seal of the Olympic spirit of phaleg , ruler of mars. Some additional info that i gathered is that : His name is often spelled as Camniel, Kamuel, Chamuel, or Camiel. The name Camael itself is Latin in origin, and means he who sees God, or he who seeks out God. The Archangel Camael is often associated with pure love, and he is said to be able to wipe away all traces of sorrow from a persons heart. Camael is also known as the facilitator of total forgiveness, helping to mend and heal broken or damaged relationships. Another gift that Camael is said to bestow on people, is the ability to find or recognize one's soul mate. final conclusion : these 2 angels definitively are not the same , the question is which is the rightful ruler om Mars
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Evocationmagic.com - Online View topic - camael or samael
and Tuesday ? ,after all u don't want to call an angel associated with love and forgiveness to bing u justice and revenge On my humble opinion i ll decided to stay with samael.
nox Magician Posts: 266 Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:56 pm Location: Targu Mures, Romania YIM Top
Re: camael or samael
by Wanderer Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:30 pm I don't have enough personal experience to be able to clearly divide the two, as I only know Camael from some very cursory work. Samael, on the other hand, is a spirit I know rather well, as I've been working with Him on and off for several years. From what I can tell, Camael is indeed an angel that flows within the Mars energy current. As you noted, He is the both a reconciler and a judicator, which makes a great deal of sense, as Mars involves conquering by the sword, so to speak. Wisdom is, however, the better part of valour, so Mars does have a bit of a softer side in which one is motivated to seek peace rather then war. This is mirrored in the Norse God Forseti, who is known to be a judicator only when two group's issues cannot be reconciled. Samael, on the other hand, has always struck me as a war machine, and his name translates to "Poison of God". I've seen and heard a number of people count Him amongst the troup of fallen angels, which would make sense, given how utterly martial He is. I've used His services many a time when a can of whupass needed to be opened. Keeping that in mind, I'd be more likely to call Camael when a sense of peace and strength was sought. I'd call Samael for the wet work, so to speak.
<~Wanderer, Sorcerer for Hire~>
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~"The Devil is in the details"
Wanderer Supreme Magus Posts: 1434 Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:22 pm Location: AZ Website YIM Top
Re: camael or samael
by Wanderer Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:47 pm Frater Kaeso wrote:Alot of the seals in the grimoire of armadel are switched around. Camael and samael are the same. The early translaTors mistaked the letter Samekh for a Khaph. So Samael became Khamael and then eventually Camael.
According to whom?
<~Wanderer, Sorcerer for Hire~>
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~"The Devil is in the details"
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Wanderer Supreme Magus Posts: 1434 Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:22 pm Location: AZ Website YIM Top
Re: camael or samael
by Eno Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:28 am In my opinion they are different. Sam(m)ael, a combination of "sam" meaning poison and "el" meaning angel, while Camael translates "he who sees god". In rabbinic literature Samael is the chief of the Satans and the angel of death. In the secrets of Enoch he is the prince of demons. In the Zohar Samael is the dark angel who wrestled with Jacob. Camael on the other hand is one of the 10 archangels of the Briatic world. According to Eliphas Levi he personifies divine justice. According to Waite Camael was the god of war in Druid mythology V.I.T.R.I.O.L.
Eno Initiate Posts: 8 Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:21 pm Location: Germany Top
Re: camael or samael
by girasol Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:44 pm
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Has anyone (eta: besides Wanderer, who addressed this) called both and compared results? girasol Magician Posts: 337 Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:15 pm Top
Re: camael or samael
by Eno Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:20 pm girasol wrote:Has anyone (eta: besides Wanderer, who addressed this) called both and compared results?
For me Samael appeared as a sort of winged serpent (not just two, but lots of wings), a presence absorbing life forces, like a black hole. Camael on the other hand was a fiery presence, no solid state of aggregation, definitely marsian qualities. V.I.T.R.I.O.L.
Eno Initiate Posts: 8 Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:21 pm Location: Germany Top
Re: camael or samael
by Caliban Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:29 am Samael is the oldest form of the name, and is widely attested in Jewish sources. I don't think I have ever come across Camael in rabbinical literature.
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My strong suspicion is that the spelling Camael was either an error in transcription (all of the old texts were written as manuscripts, and copied by hand) or possibly as a way of not committing a dangerous name to writing, as written words and individual letters are held to have great power in Qabalah. Hebrew does not have the letter C. Like Greek, the third letter of its alphabet is a G, Gimel. So the initial consonant in Camael would be a Kaph, usually transliterated as a K. Kaph is very close in shape to the Hebrew S, Samekh. A Samekh carelessly or hastily written, or written on a page that later suffered deterioration, could easily be mistaken by a later reader for a Kaph, rendering Samael as Kamael. Likewise, a qabalist wary of rousing a dangerous current of force might choose to deliberately write the first letter in an incomplete form to nullify the potency of the name. But it is undoubtedly Samael who is the Archangel of Geburah, the Sphere of Mars. Mars is certainly the planet connected with Tuesday, and Samael is recorded as one of the Seven Angels in the Presence of God. In the rabbinical literature, Samael is the Prince of the Left Emanation, the pillar of Severity, and also the guardian Angel of Esau, Edom and Rome. Although an angel serving the Deity, he is also the King of Demons, and Lilith is said to be his bride or other half. Together they form the Qlippothic unity or Averse Kether, Thaumiel, literally meaning "Mighty is my Twin". Samekh, Mem, Aleph is also a Hebrew word meaning "blind", and some traditions regard Samael as "the blind god", identifying him with Ialdabaoth, the Demiurge of Gnostic belief. By contrast, Kaph, Aleph, Mem does not occur as a root in Hebrew. Kaph, Mem, Heh does occur as a verb meaning to long for, to desire greatly, and as an interrogative adverb meaning "why?" or "how long?" but angelic names are more usually constructed from nouns. For these reasons, I personally have come to use the name Samael exclusively. He has a very prominent place in Jewish lore, where Camael is unattested, and it is explicitly given as in his nature to be simultaneously an Angelic and Demonic power. I firmly believe that this is the original name, and recommend it as the preferred form. That established, I very strongly recommend that anyone working with Qabalah and with Hebrew names to acquire a dictionart of Biblical Hebrew, and if possible more than one. Translations given in magical literature are often unreliable, leading to jumbles and confusions of precisely this sort. Good luck! "Stoop down unto the darkly splendid world, And be wedded to that Blind Creature of the Slime." -- Liber Tzaddi
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Caliban Adept Posts: 150 Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:15 am Location: Cincinnati, Ohio Top
Re: camael or samael
by Caliban Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:51 pm Eno wrote:In my opinion they are different. Sam(m)ael, a combination of "sam" meaning poison and "el" meaning angel, while Camael translates "he who sees god". Can you tell me what Hebrew lexicon gives "KAM" as "to see"? You have looked this up yourself, right? In rabbinic literature Samael is the chief of the Satans and the angel of death. In the secrets of Enoch he is the prince of demons. In the Zohar Samael is the dark angel who wrestled with Jacob. True. But he is also one of the Seven Angels in the Presence, and the Angel of Esau, Edom and Rome. He opposes Michael. But he is still an Angel. Camael on the other hand is one of the 10 archangels of the Briatic world. Please cite the rabbinical literature that supports this, or find me a reference to Camael that predates 1600 CE. According to Waite Camael was the god of war in Druid mythology Why would Celtic druids have a god with a Hebrew name? Or, why should a Gaulish name of a war-god be presumed to be that of a Hebrew planetary Angel? "Stoop down unto the darkly splendid world,
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Evocationmagic.com - Online View topic - camael or samael
And be wedded to that Blind Creature of the Slime." -- Liber Tzaddi
Caliban Adept Posts: 150 Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:15 am Location: Cincinnati, Ohio Top
Re: camael or samael
by MichaelSebastianLux Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:38 pm Caliban wrote:Samael is the oldest form of the name, and is widely attested in Jewish sources. I don't think I have ever come across Camael in rabbinical literature. My strong suspicion is that the spelling Camael was either an error in transcription (all of the old texts were written as manuscripts, and copied by hand) or possibly as a way of not committing a dangerous name to writing, as written words and individual letters are held to have great power in Qabalah. Hebrew does not have the letter C. Like Greek, the third letter of its alphabet is a G, Gimel. So the initial consonant in Camael would be a Kaph, usually transliterated as a K. Kaph is very close in shape to the Hebrew S, Samekh. A Samekh carelessly or hastily written, or written on a page that later suffered deterioration, could easily be mistaken by a later reader for a Kaph, rendering Samael as Kamael. Likewise, a qabalist wary of rousing a dangerous current of force might choose to deliberately write the first letter in an incomplete form to nullify the potency of the name. But it is undoubtedly Samael who is the Archangel of Geburah, the Sphere of Mars. Mars is certainly the planet connected with Tuesday, and Samael is recorded as one of the Seven Angels in the Presence of God. In the rabbinical literature, Samael is the Prince of the Left Emanation, the pillar of Severity, and also the guardian Angel of Esau, Edom and Rome. Although an angel serving the Deity, he is also the King of Demons, and Lilith is said to be his bride or other half. Together they form the
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Qlippothic unity or Averse Kether, Thaumiel, literally meaning "Mighty is my Twin". Samekh, Mem, Aleph is also a Hebrew word meaning "blind", and some traditions regard Samael as "the blind god", identifying him with Ialdabaoth, the Demiurge of Gnostic belief. By contrast, Kaph, Aleph, Mem does not occur as a root in Hebrew. Kaph, Mem, Heh does occur as a verb meaning to long for, to desire greatly, and as an interrogative adverb meaning "why?" or "how long?" but angelic names are more usually constructed from nouns. For these reasons, I personally have come to use the name Samael exclusively. He has a very prominent place in Jewish lore, where Camael is unattested, and it is explicitly given as in his nature to be simultaneously an Angelic and Demonic power. I firmly believe that this is the original name, and recommend it as the preferred form. That established, I very strongly recommend that anyone working with Qabalah and with Hebrew names to acquire a dictionart of Biblical Hebrew, and if possible more than one. Translations given in magical literature are often unreliable, leading to jumbles and confusions of precisely this sort. Good luck!
This is exactly the same conclusion I've come to after wreaking my brain over the perceived inconsistencies over the years as well as what appears to be the most common conclusion between other magicians I've talked to regarding the matter (including a few linguist friends of mine). Another option, however, that can throw a wrench into the wheel (but none-the-less worth a thought) is the idea that Cumael and Samael can be approached as distinct aspects of the same entity in a similar way as one would approach the differences between Zeus and Jupiter who are culturally distinct but have become conflated over years of exchange between the two cultures. Again, just a thought.
MichaelSebastianLux Initiate Posts: 7 Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:05 pm Location: Seattle, Washington
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Re: camael or samael
by BrotherEnoch Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:47 am I have also assumed that Camael is Samael. I believe that even with the spelling Camael, the author meant the letter C to have an S sound. Elsewhere I have pointed out that even though words are mostly fixed in their spellings these days, that has not always been the case. Even on something official such as the minting of coins you could get inconsistent spelling. An example can be seen in the British Gold Noble. One minting has the word "TRANSIENS" and the next minting reads "TRANCIENS". In this instance C is obviously to make the S sound. Given a few hundred years, English readers might make the mistake of saying "tranKienz" instead of "tranSiens". Or they might pronounce it correctly as C still has both sounds even to this day. I have assumed the C of Camael is very similar to my coin example. Besides, like Caliban pointed out, Kamael has no known Hebrew precedent. "By the way, I like your wizard: instead of making all the wealthiest women in love with himself, and getting thousands out of them, he condescends to pick up 15 by rendering Glaucias irresistible." -Tychiades in Lucian's "The Liar"
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