1

4 SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE

5 JANUARY 6TH ATTACK ON THE U.S. CAPITOL,

6 U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

7 WASHINGTON, D.C.

10

11 INTERVIEW OF: DOUGLAS SELLERS

12

13

14

15 Friday, June 3, 2022

16

17 Washington, D.C.

18

19

20 The interview in the above matter was held via Webex, commencing at 10:00 p.m.
 2

2 Appearances:

5 For the SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE

6 THE JANUARY 6TH ATTACK ON THE U.S. CAPITOL:

8 TAFF ASSOCIATE

9 SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL

10 ROFESSIONAL STAFF MEMBER

11 SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL

12

13

14 For DOUGLAS SELLERS:

15

16 STEFAN PASSANTINO
 3

2 Good morning. This is a transcribed interview conducted by the

3 House Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the U.S. Capitol

4 pursuant to House Resolution 503.

5 My name i s _ , I'm a senior investigative counsel; and with me i s -

6 - who is also a senior investigative counsel.

7 At this time, I'd ask the witness to please state and spell your last name -- state

8 your full name and spell your last name.

9 Mr. Sellers. Sure. Douglas Sellers, S-e-1-1-e-r-s.

10 Mr. Sellers, thank you for joining us and doing so voluntarily. I'm

11 going to go over a few ground rules before we get started, but first let me say that, while

12 and I are here in the room today, and we're doing this by Webex, we may be

13 joined at any point by members of the select committee, and if they do join they can ask

14 questions, but as it stands now it's just the two of us and we'll be the ones asking

15 questions, okay?

16 Mr. Sellers. Okay.

18 record.

19 Mr. Passantino. Stefan Passantino, P-a-s-s-a-n-t-i-n-o.

21 Now, there is an official reporter who is transcribing the interview today, Mr.

22 Sellers, and, as you heard at the start, it is also being recorded on video.

23 In order to keep the record as clean as possible, we just ask that you wait for us to

24 complete our questions before you begin your answer, and we'll wait for you complete

25 your answer before we ask our next question.

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1 If anything we ask is unclear, please just say so. We'll do our best to rephrase

2 the question or make it clear for you. And just to note that the official reporter can't

3 record nonverbal responses like a shake or nod of the head, so excuse me in advance if at

4 any point we have to ask you to say yes or no or to verbalize your response.

5 So as we go through the questions today, all you're being asked is to provide the

6 most complete answer you can, based on your best recollection of the events. If you

7 don't remember something or you don't know the answer, just say so.

8 If at any point you need a break to talk to Mr. Passantino, or you just need a break

9 for comfort, we're happy to accommodate. Just let us know. We can turn our cameras

10 off and go on mute and just take a few minutes, whatever you need.

11 And before we get started I mentioned, but I'll say now on the record, we're going

12 to show you some exhibits today, some documents and a photograph. Take as much

13 time as you need, and if you need to take a break with your attorney to look at those to

14 familiarize yourself with them before you answer any questions.

15 What we'll do is we'll flash them up on the screen, and if you need us to

16 direct -- you know, to zoom in so you can see them more clearly, just let us know.

17 Otherwise, I'll just remind you, as we do all witnesses, that it is unlawful to

18 deliberately provide false information to Congress and that to do so could result in

19 criminal penalties.

20 Do you understand all that?

21 Mr. Sellers. Yes.

22 Do you have any questions before we get started?

23 Mr. Sellers. I don't believe so, no. Thank you.

24 And, as I said earlier and will just make clear for the record, you're

25 appearing voluntarily. We reached out to you and you retained Mr. Passantino and
 5

1 agreed to meet with us without the need for a subpoena.

2 Is that right?

3 Mr. Sellers. Yes.

4 Thank you. Now, as part of our reach-out to Mr. Passantino and

5 our conversations about your appearance, we also made several requests for documents,

6 to the extent you had them. Were you generally familiar with the requests that we

7 made through Mr. Passantino?

8 Mr. Sellers. Yes.

9 And as I understand from Mr. Passantino, you don't have anything

10 responsive that is -- that falls within the categories and the timeframe that we asked for.

11 Is that right?

12 Mr. Sellers. That is correct, yes.

13 But just so we're clear, did you make an effort to look through

14 whatever electronic devices or hard copy files you have to see if you had anything

15 responsive?

16 Mr. Sellers. I did, yes. I looked at my phone and don't really have any

17 hard-copy documents, but I did ensure that I didn't have any of the documents in the

18 request.

19 Thank you for doing that.

20 EXAMINATION

21 BY

22 Q All right. So then we'll start with a few background questions, as we do

23 with all witnesses.

24 How old are you, Mr. Sellers?

25 A Thirty-one.
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1 Q And what's the highest level of education you have?

2 A Bachelor's degree.

3 Q What year did you graduate?

4 A 2013.

5 Q And from what school?

6 A Southern Methodist University in Dallas, Texas.

7 Q What is your current occupation?

8 A I'm -- I have my own company. I'm a consultant.

9 Q And prior to that, we understand you worked in the White House for

10 President Trump's administration. Is that right?

11 A That's correct.

12 Q And what year did you join the White House?

13 A Well, so I -- I worked in the EOP and 0MB in 2017 for about a year -- or

14 almost a year. I worked at the Overseas Private Investment Corporation, OPIC, which is

15 now called the DFC, for a year and a half, and then left government for about a year, and

16 then started working in the White House in -- at the very end of May 2020 through

17 January 2020 -- 2021, excuse me.

18 Q Was your last day in your role at the White House roughly January 20th of

19 2021?

20 A I -- it was actually January 7th. I -- yeah. It was January 7th.

21 Q All right. We'll come back to that. But when you joined in May of 2020,

22 what role did you join -- did you come on as with the White House?

23 A I believe my title was assistant staff secretary, but I joined as a member of

24 the staff secretary's office.

25 Q Did your role remain the same throughout your tenure, from May of 2020
 7

1 through January of 2021?

2 A Yes. I mean, Derek Lyons, who was staff secretary, left in December, but

3 that didn't really change the nature of my role upon him leaving and I was only there for a

4 week or two after he left. But yes, it was pretty much the same role throughout.

5 Q As a general matter, what were your responsibilities within the Office of

6 Staff Secretary?

7 A I was just a member of the team, and we kind of had a few of us that had

8 played similar roles, in terms of staffing out documents, getting comments on executive

9 orders, Presidential memos, those sorts of things, talking points, speeches, and kind of

10 worked it through our process in order to get it prepared for final signature or for, you

11 know, delivery, or what have you.

12 So I just kind of was -- we all -- most of the folks on our team had similar roles in

13 that. And I just was part of that, that team. So I didn't necessarily have like a set

14 specialty or anything like that. We all were kind of team players and did similar work.

15 Q When it comes to speeches in particular, again, just in a summary fashion,

16 what was the role of the staff secretary's office?

17 A So basically, we would get a speech from the speechwriting team, and then

18 circulate that speech to the relevant people in the EOP or the administration, depending

19 on the nature of it, and then collect comments for the speechwriting team. Then they

20 would, you know, adjudicate those comments or that feedback.

21 And then we would -- we would sometimes do that, you know, multiple rounds,

22 depending on the nature of the speech or how long or et cetera, and then get it ready for

23 final presentation, and make a binder for the President and, you know, then put in the

24 speech text into the teleprompter if that were -- if it were a teleprompter speech, that

25 sort of thing. So just kind of coordinating input and feedback on speeches.

 8

1 In terms of background, I don't have any more questions. I don't

2 know if Mr. - does.

3 I don't, no, thank you.

5 Q Okay. So I think we can just kind of cut to the chase, Mr. Sellers, with

6 showing you exhibit 2. It's a photograph -- I'll tell you before it flashes on the screen or

7 as it's coming up -- that was taken on the evening of January 5th of 2021 in the Oval

8 Office. And as we understand it, it was roughly around 5 p.m. in the evening.

9 So do you see that photograph on your screen? Are you able to see it?

10 A Yes. Yes, I do.

11 Q And as we understand it, if we look at the photo, President Trump is on the

12 right, and then as you follow the photo, you work from right to left.

13 Do you recognize the young woman who's standing next to him at the Resolute

14 Desk?

15 A Yes. That's my colleague, Madison Porter.

16 Q And then to her left?

17 A To her left is me -- or, excuse me, to her right. Sorry. I'm looking --

18 Q As we look at the photo, it reverses the perspective.

19 A Yeah, I have to flip over. I'm to Madison's right.

20 Q Let me just start by asking this: Do you remember being in the Oval Office

21 that night of January 5th of 2021?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Why were you there?

24 A I was there with Madison to help her. We were both there together to get

25 the President to sign, I believe, a lot of legislation that was soon to expire if he weren't to
 9

1 sign it. And so we were getting that, and maybe a few other orders or, you know, pieces

2 of -- or documents signed that evening.

3 I know that it was a lot of legislation. I think -- I think you can see some of it on

4 the corner of the desk there. But I know that there were kind of stacks of them, and I

5 went to help her carry them and then get them signed.

6 Q Understood. Now, when you and Ms. Porter went in to have those signed,

7 were all of the other people that we see in that meeting, putting President Trump aside,

8 were all of the other people there when you first came in the Oval Office, that you

9 remember?

10 A When we first went in, I think it was just the two of us. I don't remember it

11 being a crowd. I don't remember if we were the only three in -- or if we were the only

12 two in the room in addition to the President, but I remember -- I definitely remember it

13 not being everyone in that picture when we initially went in.

14 Q In terms of everyone else in the picture besides the three people we've now

15 discussed, could you just work your way around the picture in the same direction. We

16 don't have to do the left-right, but just who you recognize being in there, starting next to

17 you on the other side, not Ms. Porter. So who's that, if you can tell us?

18 A Kayleigh McEnany is in the red sweater. And then I think that's Margo

19 Martin in the -- in the -- next to her in the dark outfit. I do not remember who is in the

20 doorway. And then, I believe, that the man next to -- who I do not -- I'm not recalling

21 whose name that is, is Davis Ingle. And then I believe next to him is Gaby Hurt.

22 I cannot remember her last name, but I believe the woman next to her is Lindy, I

23 think, is her first name. The gentleman next -- under the clock is Chad -- Chad Gilmartin,

24 I believe. And then I'm not -- I'm not sure I remember the woman's name next to him,

25 or the other two behind the lamp. And then I see Judd Deere standing in the gray suit,
 10

1 and it looks like the back of Dan Scavino's head in this picture as well.

2 Q Now, Mr. Scavino aside, all of the people that you just discussed from

3 Kayleigh McEnany through Judd Deere, were they all, to the best of your knowledge, part

4 of, I guess, which office?

5 A The press team or the communications team. I'm not sure. I guess

6 communications team is the right way to put it.

7 Q So you and Ms. Porter were the only people in the room at that time who

8 were from the staff secretary's office?

9 A That is correct.

10 Q Now, when you and Ms. Porter came into the Oval Office, I know you said

11 earlier you recall the President being there, but did you remember Mr. Scavino being

12 there when you first joined, or did he come later?

13 A I do not recall that.

14 Q You talked about the door in the picture, right in the center where the young

15 woman is standing who you don't know the name of, and it appears that the door is open

16 to the outside. Is that right?

17 A Yes.

18 Q All right. Do you remember the door being open that night when you were

19 in the Oval Office?

20 A I do. I do.

21 Q So I think it would be helpful -- and you take your time if you need a minute

22 to review and go over with Mr. Passantino.

23 I'm going to show you exhibit 3, and what exhibit 3 is, is an excerpt from the book,

24 "Peril," by the authors and reporters Bob Woodward and Robert Costa. Do you see that

25 first page 1 that shows you the title page?

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1 A Yes, I do.

2 Q All right. So we'll go to page 2 of the exhibit, and page 2 are the pages in

3 the book 230 and 231, and then just to show you page 3 of the exhibit is pages 232 and

4 233.

5 Now, if you go back to page 2, what we've done is we've just highlighted a

6 description in Peril of the meeting that took place within the Oval Office the night of

7 January 5th that that photo was of.

8 And so, what I'd like you to do is just read the highlighted portion to yourself.

9 And if you want to take a break and talk to Mr. Passantino about it, you let us know. But

10 if you -- we can zoom in as close as you need, and just when you're done let us know.

11 Doug, are you able to see that?

12 Mr. Sellers. Yes, I'm able to see it. I'm happy to read it right now. Okay, I've

13 read the 230 and 231 highlighted sections.

14

15 Q So let's move to page 3 of the exhibit. There's just one last paragraph.

16 Let us know when you're done reading that.

17 A Okay.

18 Q Are you good?

19 A Yes, I read all the highlighted section.

20 Q Okay. So is the description within Peril, is that consistent with what you

21 remember about the meeting that night?

22 A I don't -- I don't necessarily remember the -- the conversation that was

23 described there. I don't really recall the quotes or what was said in the room.

24 I do remember the room, the door was open, and I -- I personally don't remember

25 shivering or being cold, but I don't know that I would necessarily remember that.
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1 Q What -- and I guess you were in -- as we see in the photo, you were in a full

2 suit, although some of your colleagues maybe had on dresses or sleeveless dresses, so

3 understood.

4 But in terms of the meeting then, and understanding that you might not recall the

5 particular quotes, do you remember discussion of the people who had come to D.C. for

6 the President's rally and hearing the music?

7 A I remember hearing pretty faint sounds of music in the background. I don't

8 know that I remember hearing like people or crowds. And I know that there -- I don't

9 really remember the contents of the conversation. I know that there might have been

10 some comment made about the people outside, but I don't really recall any sort of

11 discussion, or any sort of -- the details of any conversation about the events or the -- what

12 was going on outside.

13 Q But as a general matter, do you recall that the President was discussing the

14 fact that there were people there in town, beside the specifics?

15 A Yes. As a general matter, I think -- I mean, I recall him making mention of

16 people being in town, but I don't really necessarily remember the nature of those

17 comments or anything like that.

18 Q Were you there when the door to the outside was actually opened, or was it

19 opened by the time you got in that evening? Do you remember?

20 A I do not remember that.

21 Q Do you recall -- you see Mr. Scavino sitting there in the photo and his phone

22 is out. Do you see that? Did you see that in exhibit 2?

23 A I did, yes.

24 Q Do you remember there being discussion of any tweets or the President

25 sending out any tweets at that time?

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1 A I don't remember that or those sorts of discussions.

2 Q Okay. Do you recall any discussion by the President, put aside the people

3 who were in town, but about what was going to happen the next day at the joint session

4 of Congress for the certification of the Presidential election?

5 A I do not recall, no.

6 Q Did he -- did the President discuss that, though, and you just don't

7 remember the specifics?

8 A He may have. I just -- I don't really -- I don't recall any talk about the next

9 day. He may have. I just don't -- I don't recall.

10 Q If we look at exhibit 4 -- we'll bring that up for you, Mr. Sellers.

11 A Okay.

12 Q And what this is is just an archive of President Trump's tweets. And so, the

13 first page, it starts with tweets that he sent on January 6th, but I want to direct you to

14 page 4.

15 And if you look at page 4, what we've done is highlighted three that were sent out,

16 the first at 5:05 p.m. on the night of January 5th, the second at 5:12 p.m. on January 5th,

17 and the third at 5:25 p.m. on January 5.

18 Do you see those there?

19 A Yes, I do see them.

20 Q If you could just let us know when you're done reading them to yourself.

21 A Okay. Okay, I've read all three.

22 Q So I just want to talk about these a little bit. But you notice that the timing

23 is in line with when we understand this meeting in the Oval Office was taking place, which

24 is in the 5 o'clock hour.

25 Do you recall that being about the time you were in there, in the office?
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1 A I don't recall the time of when I would have been in there.

2 Q Was it within business hours, though?

3 A I don't know what business hours technically are, but, I mean, I remember it

4 being dark and, I mean, I remember it being like towards the end of a workday. So yes, I

5 mean, at the end of a workday sort of thing.

6 Q And you notice there that in the first tweet that we've highlighted, the 5:50

7 p.m., the President says, "We hear you (and love you) from the Oval Office," and he's

8 talking about at the start that Washington is being inundated with people who don't want

9 to see an election victory stolen. Do you see that?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Does that refresh your recollection about whether you heard or could hear

12 people within the Oval Office at that time outside, and that the President was

13 commenting on the fact that people were there in town?

14 A I don't -- I don't recall necessarily hearing people outside. Again, I recall

15 like music and, I mean, maybe faint -- I think you could kind of always hear, like, noises of

16 the city from outside, but I don't necessarily recall like hearing a loud crowd or anything

17 of that -- of that nature.

18 Q And in his next tweet just a few minutes later at 5:12, he's talking about

19 weak and ineffective RINO section of the Republican Party, and he tweets out certain

20 Senators, Senator McConnell, Senator Cornyn, and Senator Thune.

21 Do you see that?

22 A Yes, I see that.

23 Q So, as we read in the Peril book, where it says there was discussion about

24 RINOs, and what to do about the RINOs, this tweet is in line with that.

25 Does that refresh your memory about whether the President was discussing that
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1 in the room with you all?

2 A I don't recall that, that specifically.

3 Q At minute 5:25 p.m., you see that he sends a tweet about antifa being a

4 terrorist organization, stay out of Washington, law enforcement is watching you.

5 And if you recall, in the Peril section you read, there is discussion about the

6 President saying there's a lot of anger out there, and a staffer commenting that they hope

7 it was going to be safe the next day, and so, consistent with the tweet that's sent at 5:25

8 talking about law enforcement watching.

9 So, again, does that refresh your recollection about whether there was discussion

10 in that room by the President about whether it would be safe in the city on January 6th?

11 A I do not recall that, that conversation, no.

12 Q What, if anything, more do you recall about your time in the Oval Office that

13 night and what was discussed?

14 A I really don't have a great recollection of what was discussed. I do

15 remember getting out of the way when the group took a picture. There was a big group

16 picture, I remember, and that's when I think that we left.

17 But I don't really recall the conversations. I just -- I really remember just being in

18 there to get documents signed and then -- and then kind of being -- getting out when the

19 group of the press team took a picture, I believe.

20 Q So regarding the President's, what, if anything, he was saying that night, you

21 know, you see the last tweet there is at 5:25 p.m., right?

22 A Yes, I see that.

23 Q That we highlighted. Okay.

24 So why don't we look at exhibit 5. I'm just going to orient you that this is an

25 email chain that starts on January 5th, and actually ends on January 5th, but the last -- the
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1 top email in the chain that you're looking on page 1, if we go -- stay up there at the top,

2 please, it's from Ross Worthington sent to a collection of people.

3 And it's listed as being at 12:46 a.m. on January 6th. For your orientation, this is

4 actually in Greenwich Mean Time, so that's actually 7:46 p.m. on the 5th.

5 A Okay.

6 Q And included on there, you see at the top the first recipient is Austin Ferrer,

7 but then the next one is Madison Porter. But what I want to do, then, is go to the first

8 email in the chain to show you how it started. So it's on page 2. Go back up to page 2.

9 Okay.

10 So there you see that January 5th at 5:11 p.m. Austin Ferrer writes to Vince Haley

11 and Ross Worthington, copying the staff secretary email address and also Molly Michael,

12 and the subject line is the 11 a.m. speech. And then Mr. Ferrer is asking Vincent Ross:

13 "Is a draft available for POTUS' speech tomorrow a.m.? Thank you. Austin."

14 So can you see that all?

15 A Yes, I can see those emails.

16 Q Who are Mr. Haley and Mr. Worthington?

17 A Mr. Haley and Mr. Worthington were two of the -- two members of the

18 speechwriting team.

19 Q Who was Mr. Ferrer?

20 A Mr. Ferrer was -- we called it the body man or the President's, you know,

21 personal aide. I'm not sure what his exact title was, but --

22 Q And the staff secretary email address that's copied on this asking about the

23 speech, was that an email address that would come to you and your colleagues in the

24 staff secretary office?

25 A Yes, that is correct.

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1 Q If you notice the timing, 5:11 p.m., that's in between when the first tweet we

2 showed you from the President at 5:05 p.m. talking about the -- Washington being

3 inundated with people, and the 5:12 p.m. tweet talking about RINOs and what they'll do

4 the next day at the joint session.

5 So I want to show you the next email in the chain. So we have to go to the

6 bottom of page 1, and it will come back to the top of page 2.

7 So there you can see that Madison Porter at 5:28 p.m. writes to Mr. Ferrer,

8 Mr. Haley, and Mr. Worthington, copies the Staff Secretary email address and Molly

9 Michael. If we go down then to page 2 to read the text, and says: "Ross and

10 Vince -- we got some feedback from POTUS re: the remarks. Will give you a call." And,

11 again, this is at 5:28 p.m., 3 minutes after the President had sent the last tweet talking

12 about antifa and law enforcement.

13 So do you recall the President giving you and Ms. Porter feedback to provide to

14 Ross and Vince for his speech the next day?

15 A I do not. And I would just say, I guess, like, I don't -- I know that I didn't

16 work on this speech per se, because my last day was supposed to be the 6th. And so, I

17 kind of handed off a lot of my duties and responsibilities.

18 And so, I do not remember any sort of direction, but I also might not have gotten

19 any direction, because Madison was staying on for the next couple weeks and may

20 have -- may have gotten some sort of direction. But I do not recall receiving any sort of

21 feedback or direction there.

22 Q This is -- you see there that Mr. Ferrer is asking is a draft available for the

23 speech, and here Ms. Porter is saying before a draft is circulated: "We got some

24 feedback from POTUS re: the remarks. Will give you a call."

25 If you go up to the next email in the chain on page 1, Vince replies to Austin at
 18

1 6:02 p.m.: "Austin -- we are finalizing the draft. We anticipate delivery by 8 p.m.

2 latest."

3 So what this reflects is that no draft had made its way to the President yet. So, in

4 terms of your experience with the staff secretary's office, was it in the ordinary course for

5 the President to provide feedback about a speech to the staff secretary without having

6 seen a draft first?

7 A So I guess I would just say it really varied on the speech. And there were

8 times I recall when the President would work -- or would correspond with the

9 speechwriting team directly in the course of drafting a speech and that, you know, we

10 wouldn't necessarily be in the middle of that exchange if the President, you know, gave

11 specific instructions to the speechwriting team.

12 So, I think that that had happened in the past, just depending on the speech, in

13 terms of the President interacting with the speechwriting team in the course of them

14 drafting it.

15 Q But here he is telling -- Ms. Porter is saying that the President gave -- well,

16 she says "we" feedback, and she copies the staff secretary and then is reaching out to

17 speechwriters.

18 So in terms of giving the staff secretary's office feedback before seeing a draft and

19 not reaching out to the speechwriters directly, was that in the ordinary course, in your

20 experience?

21 A I -- I don't really know if that was in the ordinary course or not. I guess -- I

22 think there could have been times in the past when the President, who I think knew that

23 the staff secretary team worked with the speechwriting team on speeches, would

24 mention to really anyone on either of the teams that he wanted something to be in the

25 remarks.
 19

1 So I don't know that that was necessarily out of the ordinary, just in terms of

2 letting someone on either team know that he wanted something to be reflected in the

3 remarks.

4 Q Speaking of wanting something reflected in the remarks, we're going to

5 show you two exhibits in a row to show you how that draft ends up coming. But if you

6 look up at the top of this exhibit, to orient you, on the exhibit 4 -- excuse me, exhibit 5

7 still -- exhibit 5, my apologies -- that's Mr. Worthington, that top one at 7:45 p.m. on the

8 5th, saying: "Draft attached -- please confirm receipt and delivery. Thank you."

9 And the draft he sent is on this email. Now, we can show you, starting on page

10 3, and I just want you to focus on that first paragraph and just read it to yourself and let

11 us know when you're done.

12 A Okay. Okay, I've read the first paragraph.

13 Q And do you recognize within that first paragraph the same kind of language

14 that was in the President's tweets at the times I showed you on the night of the 5th?

15 For instance, our country has had enough and will not take it anymore, don't want to see

16 our election victory stolen by emboldened radical left Democrats.

17 If it helps you to look at the tweets, I'm happy to bring them back up. Do you

18 want to compare that?

19 A I mean, I recall I think the tweets. And sorry, could you just restate your

20 question, I guess?

21 Q Well, do you see that language there, starting with the last two sentences in

22 that opening paragraph?

23 A Okay.

24 Q Right? And then we'll just compare them just so you can see it on exhibit 4,

25 page 4. And the 5:05 tweet, if you just read that to yourself again.
 20

1 A [Witness reviewed the document.]

2 Q Do you recognize the similar verbiage and words between that tweet and

3 what's in the opening paragraph of the speech?

4 A Yes.

5 Q Okay. So then, if we look at exhibit 6, this is an earlier version of the

6 speech that Mr. Worthington sent to Stephen Miller, copying Vince Haley and Robert

7 Gabriel, on January 5th at 3:30 p.m., so 4 hours before that draft he circulated later.

8 I'll just stop here and ask, was it your understanding of the speechwriting process

9 that the team, you know, Mr. Worthington and Mr. Haley, would work with Mr. Miller to

10 get a draft in good shape before sending it in to the staff secretary review process?

11 A Yes. My understanding was that the team worked together -- or, I mean,

12 the speechwriting team worked together before sending a draft, depending on the nature

13 of the speech. But yes, that's my understanding.

14 Q So if we look at the first paragraph of this speech on page 2 of the same

15 exhibit, just read the first -- you can read the first two paragraphs to yourself and just let

16 us know when you're done.

17 A Okay, I've read the first two paragraphs.

18 Q And, Mr. Sellers, in reading that, you can see that the language that we

19 focused on in the draft in the prior exhibit, and that was from the tweet and the others,

20 that that doesn't appear here in these first two paragraphs, does it? Do you see that

21 anywhere here?

22 A I do not.

23 Q All right. And so if we look at 7, exhibit 7, just to make the contrast clear,

24 there's just a red line that we created running against the two versions of the speech, the

25 earlier, then the later. And if we can zoom out a bit so you can see.
 21

1 So you see the strikeout at the top of that original, the original two paragraphs,

2 and then in blue, the insertion in a later draft of the paragraph that has the language from

3 the tweet. Do you see that?

4 A Yes, I see it.

5 Q So, I do all this by way to see if it refreshes your recollection about whether

6 when you were in the Oval Office the night of January 5th, that the feedback the

7 President had about what the speech should focus was to echo the language that he was

8 tweeting about regarding the people in town wanting to stop the steal and not having it

9 stolen by emboldened radical left Democrats.

10 Do you recall him talking about that?

11 A I do not.

12 M r . - I'll stop there and see if Mr. has any questions on the 5th.

13

14 Q I do have a few questions just more generally for you, Mr. Sellers.

15 Do you recall any discussions in the White House, whether it involved the

16 President or not, about encouraging the Vice President to take some action during the

17 joint session of Congress?

18 A I do not recall any sort of discussions or, you know, hearing those sort of

19 discussions about the Vice President, no.

20 Q Okay. And let me ask it somewhat differently just so I capture what I'm

21 getting at.

22 Do you remember any discussions whatsoever about the Vice President or his role

23 during the joint session?

24 A I do not. I mean, I recall reading the news and there being like stories

25 about that sort of thing, but I don't recall any sort of discussion that I was privy to or that I
 22

1 was a part of about that.

2 Q Okay. And when I say "discussions," that could just be casual conversations

3 between you and a colleague. It doesn't have to necessarily be kind of formal meeting

4 to discuss it.

5 But around that time, I know in the news on January 5th, The New York Times or

6 the President issued a statement about an article in the New York Times addressing an

7 alleged disagreement between the President and the Vice President, specifically about

8 January 6th.

9 Do you remember hearing about any such disagreements other than what you

10 may have read in the press?

11 A I don't, no.

12 Q Okay. Are you familiar with any outreach to State legislators that anybody

13 in the White House was conducting in the lead-up to January 6th?

14 A I'm not familiar with any -- any of that outreach, no.

15 Q And when you're in with the President on the evening of the 5th, either

16 before the rest of the crowd gathered, so just you and Ms. Porter alone, or when they

17 were gathered, can you just give us a sense of the President's general demeanor as you

18 remember it?

19 A I feel like, generally speaking, he was the same as usual. I mean, I wasn't

20 around the President a whole -- like a lot in my time, but he seemed like he was kind of

21 his usual self, from what I could tell. But I don't really recall any specific, you know,

22 aspects of his demeanor or anything like that.

23 Q I know you've gone over with Mr. - a number of questions about what

24 you recall and whether the President talked about the joint session or the crowds that

25 were outside.
 23

1 Is there anything that you do remember from that evening in that gathering about

2 what might happen the next day on January 6th?

3 A No. I don't remember any sort of conversation or discussion of that.

4 Q Okay. So it could have -- I just want to clarify. It could have happened,

5 conversations like that, you just don't recall them happening. Is that fair?

6 A Yes, that's fair.

7 Q Okay.

9 Q So you said you had already planned on being -- your last day being January

10 6th. Any particular reason why it was that day?

11 A I was just offboarding like in the -- I mean, I think offboarding took place for

12 like 2 weeks prior to the 20th. I was -- I was willing to be on the early wave of

13 offboarding because I was going to Florida with my family and going to a national

14 championship football game that weekend. And so, I put in for the earlier wave of

15 offboarding that was kind of -- it just happened to fall on the 6th.

16 Q And so, as you said, you were not going to have any more duties to handle

17 on the 6th itself, because that's the day you were basically coming in to leave, right?

18 A That is correct. I would just say on the 5th, I got a call in the afternoon, or

19 sometime in the -- on the -- in the 5th, I think it was in the afternoon, that basically said a

20 lot of folks would be working remote on the 6th because of, you know, activities at the

21 White House, or activities in Washington and travel and that sort of thing, and that I could

22 either offboard like within the hour of that phone call, or offboard on Thursday.

23 And so I wasn't ready. I just simply hadn't like packed all my stuff and wrapped

24 up all my -- you know, my things yet, so I just offboarded on Thursday.

25 Q Thursday, the 7th?

 24

1 A Yeah. I offboarded on the 7th. I just -- I had pretty much finished all

2 my -- I pretty much finished all my duties like before the 5th and the 6th and the 7th. It

3 was kind of like the week before, but yeah.

4 Q And did you have anything scheduled for January 6th, in terms of meetings

5 with the President, to get anything signed that was on your to-do list before you left?

6 A Not that -- not that I recall, no.

7 Q And you understood he was going to be at the rally on the 6th. Is that

8 right?

9 A I understood that he was speaking on the 6th, yes.

10 Q And so when you were there in the Oval Office the night of the 5th, I imagine

11 that then was the last time you understood you would be seeing the President in person

12 before you left?

13 A Yes, that was my -- that was my understanding.

14 Q And so I have to ask, and you understand why, this is the last time you're in

15 the presence of the President in your role in the White House, and you don't have a

16 memory of what he was saying during that meeting the last time you were with the man?

17 A No, I really don't. I mean, I'll be honest. It was -- I was kind of checked

18 out and I was asked to go get some documents signed with my friend Mad -- or my

19 colleague Madison, and don't really -- I was there for that reason and wasn't necessarily

20 paying attention. I was kind of already on the way out the door, so to speak.

21 Q Did you work remotely on the 6th, given that your colleague said that folks

22 would be doing that because of the rally?

23 A No, I was -- I was there on the 6th.

24 Q What time did you get into work that day?

25 A I want -- it was normal time, I mean, which for me would have been
 25

1 anywhere around 8 o'clock or 8:30, something in that range. I -- I just know I rode with

2 a colleague, because I couldn't park in my usual parking spot that day.

3 Q Where was your office located on the White House grounds or complex?

4 A It was in the -- I guess they call it the ground floor, but it feels more like a

5 basement of the West Wing. Right behind if you walked in from West Executive, take a

6 left at the Secret Service desk and go past the stairs on the left and kind of then -- I shared

7 an office with Madison Porter in the staff secretary suite.

8 Q And that day when you arrived, did you have a plan to go to the Ellipse rally

9 to see the President give that speech?

A No, I did not.

Q Did you ultimately end up going to the Ellipse rally for any portion of the

12 event?

13 A No. I was just in my office.

14 Q And the office that you shared with Ms. Porter, did it have a TV?

15 A Yes, it did.

16 Q And would the TV generally be on in the office during the day?

17 A It generally was on something, some sort of channel, and it was generally

18 muted.

Q Did you keep -- was it the quad channel that we've seen, or was it just one

20 channel at a time?

21 A Yeah. It was a lot of the quad channel, but I just said generally on

22 something because I do remember it being on the Master's, because I'm a golf fan. But

23 yeah, it was generally on the quad channel, the news.

24 Q So that day, did you work throughout the full day until the kind of what I'll

25 call the order to go home came out around 5:30 or 6 o'clock that evening?
 26

1 A I think I left earlier than that.

2 Q What time do you think you left?

3 A I think I left like middle of the afternoon. I just -- again, I remember I got a

4 ride home with a friend who -- because I couldn't drive that day. And I don't think I

5 stayed throughout the whole day, but I feel like it was sometime in the afternoon.

6 Q Who was the friend that you got the ride home with?

7 A William Crozer.

8 Q How do you spell that last name, just for the record?

9 A C-r-o-z-e-r.

10 Q Also in the staff secretary office?

11 A No, he worked in the EOB.

12 Q Did you know before you left with Mr. Crozer that there was violence at the

13 Capitol?

14 A I don't know the extent of what I knew at what times. I mean, I was

15 watching the news and -- and that sort of thing. So I don't know when that would have

16 been, you know, on the news, but I was -- I was watching the news as it unfolded on TV

17 and on -- on, you know, my phone and that sort of thing.

18 Q Understood. And that's why I was just asking. Did you -- were you aware

19 of the violence at the Capitol before you left with Mr. Crozer?

20 A I don't recall in terms of like timing. I just remember being done with my

21 work, and done for the day and we -- we left. I don't know if it was before or after I

22 knew of violence at the Capitol.

23 Q So what's your first memory of realizing that -- of learning that there was the

24 disturbance at the Capitol, however you want to characterize it?

25 A I don't necessarily remember, like, my first memory. I -- I guess just seeing

 27

1 it on the news and seeing, you know, pictures and images and videos on social media and

2 on the news.

3 Q In your office, though?

4 A Yeah, I believe I was in my office when I saw the first images of people at the

5 Capitol. But I guess the point being I don't know when I first saw, you know, the

6 violence per -- I mean, I remember seeing pictures of people outside the Capitol. I don't

7 know when that -- that timing would have been.

8 Q Did you -- did you hear any discussion while you were still at the office about

9 what, if anything, President Trump was doing to address the situation at the Capitol?

10 A I do not recall that.

11 Q Were you still in the office when the President began to tweet about the

12 Capitol and what was going on there?

13 A I'm not -- I'm not sure when he tweeted about that.

14 Q So if we look at exhibit 4 on the first page, do you see at the bottom of page

15 1, at 2:24 p.m. on January 6th of 2021, the President tweeted -- you can read it to

16 yourself, but it's about Vice President Pence. Do you see that?

17 A Yeah, I see that. I'll read it. Okay, I read that.

18 Q I can tell you that a lot of people that we've talked to in the White House or

19 close to President Trump have a strong memory of this tweet and their reaction to it.

20 Do you remember seeing this tweet when it came out or at least soon thereafter?

21 A I mean, I would have generally been like -- would generally have seen his

22 tweets just in the course of being on Twitter like personally, but I don't necessarily have a

23 recollection of seeing this one.

24 But I mean, I remember, generally speaking, just following Twitter that day. So

25 I'm sure I did see this. I just don't have a specific memory of this tweet.
 28

1 Q How about the next one at 2:38 p.m. about "please support our Capitol

2 Police." You can read that one to yourself.

3 A Yeah. I think the same thing applies, I mean that I saw it. I just don't have

4 a specific recollection of when and that sort of thing.

5 Q And the same question with respect to the one at 3:13 p.m. Can you read

6 that and let us know your thoughts?

7 A Sure. I would just say the same thing. I think I was probably seeing it on

8 Twitter, but don't necessarily remember, you know, when and my reaction to that.

9 Q And the one at 4:17 p.m., it's a link, but I'll tell you it's the video. We can

10 move up so you can see the tame on the exhibit. It's the video the President sent out in

11 which he told people to go home.

12 Are you familiar with the fact that he sent out that video that day from the Rose

13 Garden?

14 A Yes, I am.

15 Q Do you remember when you saw that video? Did you see it when it came

16 out?

17 A Yeah, generally speaking. I don't remember exactly when I saw that.

18 Q Now, and you've read these tweets to yourself, the ones where there's text,

19 and fair to say that in the ones with text from 2:24 through 3:13 p.m., there's nothing

20 explicit telling people to go home, right?

21 A I can read them again, just --

22 Q Sure.

23 A That is correct.

24 Q Do you remember any discussion within the White House before you left for

25 the day about whether the President should be making a statement, whether on Twitter
 29

1 or otherwise, to the public that people at the Capitol needed to go home?

2 A I don't -- I don't think I remember any discussion of that. I think I

3 remember seeing that on social media, that people were saying that sort of thing, but I

4 don't necessarily remember any discussion of that in the White House, per se.

5 - I'll stop and see i f - h a s any questions to follow up.

6 - Ida.

8 Q When you were at the White House at work on January 6th, do you

9 remember seeing images on TV of people breaking windows to the Capitol?

10 A I do not recall. That's not to say I didn't see them. I just don't remember.

11 Q Do you remember people being inside the Capitol or seeing images of that

12 while you were at work on January 6th?

13 A I believe so. I believe so.

14 Q And do you remember any discussions whatsoever with Ms. Porter or

15 anybody about what was happening at the Capitol while you were still at work on the

16 6th?

17 A I was with -- with Madison. And I remember us, you know, being shocked

18 at what was happening. I don't necessarily remember the nature of our conversation or

19 reaction per se, but I mean just, you know, shock, and I think sadness at what was

20 happening.

21 Q And do you remember, either you or Ms. Porter, ever going to talk to

22 anybody, Mr. Meadows or anybody else in the White House, about issuing a statement or

23 doing something to address what was happening at the Capitol?

24 A I do not remember me doing that, and I don't remember Madison doing that

25 either. Again, that's not to say that she didn't. I remember that I didn't. I don't
 30

1 remember her doing that or us talking about that, but I don't -- I mean, we were in the

2 same office, but we would come and go, I mean, so I don't know. But I don't remember

3 that sort of thing from either one of us.

4 Q And I know you talked earlier with - a b o u t the role of the staff

5 secretary's office with potential remarks that the President might deliver. We

6 understand that some within the White House were writing up remarks for the President

7 to deliver on the 6th.

8 Did the staff secretary's office and you have any role in reviewing, editing, or

9 drafting remarks for the President to deliver on the 6th?

10 A Do you mean like the speech he gave on the 6th, or what are you referring

11 to?

12 Q Anything at all. Any potential comments, draft comments or comments

13 that he actually did deliver?

14

15 Q Why don't we ask this just to be clear, Mr. Sellers: Did you have any role

16 with regard to the Ellipse speech that he gave that morning?

17 A No, I did not.

18 Q Okay. Okay.

19 A And then I don't remember any sort of -- or I don't remember any

20 involvement in terms of working on any other sort of remarks that day as well.

21 I just would say I guess I would -- the staff secretary's office, one of my colleagues

22 would have, you know, worked on the speech, per se, in terms of finalizing it, on the

23 Ellipse speech, but I wasn't working on that.

24

25 Q I'm also thinking of any remarks that were drafted for the President to
 31

1 deliver later that day, like in the Rose Garden, or that evening.

2 A Understood. I know -- I know that I did not work on anything like that, and

3 I don't recall any of my colleagues in the staff secretary working on anything like that, but

4 that's not to say that -- that someone in my office could have. I just don't recall.

5 know that I didn't. I just -- I don't recall any -- any sort of thing like that in our office.

6 Q And oftentimes, at least in places I've worked, there is kind of scuttlebutt or

7 discussions about what's going on in the office.

8 Do you remember any discussions about the President's call with the Vice

9 President on the morning of the 6th before he spoke at the rally on the Ellipse?

10 A I do not recall any discussions or informal discussions about that.

11 Q Do you remember hearing that the President had a call with the Vice

12 President that morning?

13 A I do not remember that, no.

14

15 Q Any discussion in the afternoon before you left about what the President

16 was just doing within the White House while the attack on the Capitol was going on?

17 A I don't recall any sort of discussion about that or knowing that, no.

18 BY
19 Q Do you know where the President was during the afternoon of the 6th?

20 A I do not. Yeah, I don't know exactly where he was, no.

21 Q And I understand that you left kind of mid-afternoon. Was that ordinary

22 for you to leave in mid-afternoon, or was there something unique about this day that

23 caused you and Mr. Crozer to leave in the afternoon on the 6th?

24 A I mean, I think seeing, you know, what was going on on television and that

25 sort of thing, and me personally being, you know, knowing that was my last day or
 32

1 second-to-last day, you know, I think it was -- it was a time that made sense to leave.

2 But that was earlier than normal, but I guess with the events that were going on

3 and considering I was technically done with all my duties and work, that was I guess not

4 too different -- or it's an anomaly, I guess, but in the sense that it was also my last day,

5 you know, so --

6 Q Do you remember hearing any instructions or suggestions from anybody at

7 the White House that people should start to leave because of what was happening on the

8 Hill?

9 A I don't recall instructions or that sort of -- that sort of thing, no.

10 Q Or even suggestions, if not a formal instruction to go home, just that, Hey,

11 you guys should probably start leaving?

12 A I don't really remember that, but, I mean, I just remember thinking that, you

13 know, we -- like, it made sense to go ahead and leave. And I think others were doing the

14 same or, you know -- but I don't necessarily remember like an urge or suggestion to do

15 that.

16 Q Do you remember any discussions, whether on the 6th or the 7th, which I

17 understand was your last day, about the President and how he should address what was

18 happening on the -- at the Capitol or what happened, if it was later in time?

19 A Sorry. Could you restate that question?

20 Q Yeah.

21 A I heard -- you know.

22 Q Of course. Any discussions at all about how the President should address

23 what happened at the Capitol?

24 A I don't -- I don't really remember much about that. I -- again, I guess I left

25 in the afternoon, and then came back the next day, and I don't -- I don't really remember
 33

1 much discussion about how to -- how to address it, or the President's, you know, first

2 response.

3 So I guess no is the answer to your question.

4 Q You did say you don't remember much about it. I want to follow up on

5 that. Do you remember anything at all about -- even in the informal conversations that

6 you may have had with your colleagues, about whether the President should address it

7 or, if so, how to address the events at the Capitol on the 6th?

8 A I'm just trying to remember if -- I mean, I feel like informally I remember, you

9 know, thinking that he should, you know, condemn what was going on, but I don't

10 necessarily remember the degree to which I talked to Madison or other colleagues about

11 that.

12 I didn't really -- I wasn't really there to talk to people about that, but as I point out,

13 so I don't necessarily remember if that was something that I was thinking about or talking

14 about to -- if that makes sense.

15 Q Okay. Yes. And do you remember hearing anything, whether formal or

16 informal conversations you had with your colleagues, that the President may have been

17 reluctant to issue any particular message on the 6th or even after on the 7th?

18 A I don't remember that being the -- I don't remember conversations about

19 that.

20 Q Okay.

21 I have no follow-up questions. I think Mr. is done.

22 Mr. Sellers, thank you. We appreciate it.

23 And, Stefan, thank you for working with us on this.

24 So this will end the interview and take care.

25 e'II go off the record.

 34

1 [Whereupon, at 10:59 a.m., the interview was concluded.]

 35

1 Certificate of Deponent/Interviewee

4 I have read the foregoing _ _ pages, which contain the correct transcript of the

5 answers made by me to the questions therein recorded.

10 Witness Name

11

12

13

14 Date

15