1

4 SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE

5 JANUARY 6TH ATTACK ON THE U.S. CAPITOL,

6 U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

7 WASHINGTON, D.C.

10

11 INTERVIEW OF: NICHOLAS DECARLO

12

13

14

15 Tuesday, October 4, 2022

16

17 Washington, D.C.

18

19

20 The interview in the above matter was held via Webex, commencing at 4:01 p.m.
 2

2 Appearances:

5 For the SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE

6 THE JANUARY 6TH ATTACK ON THE U.S. CAPITOL:

8 SENIOR ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT

9 INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL

10 PROFESSIONAL STAFF MEMBER

11 CHIEF CLERK

12 INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL

13

14

15 For NICHOLAS DECARLO:

16

17 ROBERT FEITEL

18 1300 Pennsylvania Avenue NW

19 Suite 190-515

20 Washington, D.C. 20004

 3

2 - Good afternoon.

3 This is a transcribed interview of Mr. Nicholas Decarlo, conducted by the House

4 Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol

5 pursuant to House Resolution 503.

6 And, at this time, I'd ask the witness to please state your full name and spell your

7 last name for the record.

8 Mr. Decarlo. Nicholas Joseph Decarlo. Decarlo, D-e-C-a-r-1-o.

9 Thank you very much, Mr. Decarlo.

10 So this will be a staff-led deposition, and if members join -- I don't see any on the

11 Webex right now, but if any of them join, they may also ask questions.

12 My name is and I'm an investigative counsel with the select

13 committee. With me in the room is investigative counsel. And, at

14 the time, I do not see any other staff on the Webex, but I will announce them if they join

15 as well.

16 And, at this time, could counsel please state your name for the record? Rob?

17 Mr. Feitel. Good afternoon. Robert Feitel. I'm an attorney admitted to

18 practice in Washington, D.C., and I'm counsel for Mr. Decarlo.

19 Thank you very much.

20 So there is an official reporter transcribing the record of this interview, so, Mr.

21 Decarlo, please wait until each question is completed before you begin your response,

22 and we'll try to wait until your response is complete before we ask our next question.

23 The stenographers cannot record us talking over each other, especially in this

24 virtual environment, so we'll do our best not to talk over one another. And the court

25 reporters also cannot record nonverbal responses, such as shaking your head, so it's
 4

1 important that you answer each question with an audible, verbal response.

2 And we ask that you provide complete answers based on your best recollection.

3 If the question is not clear -- and that can happen -- please just ask for clarification. And

4 if you do not know the answer, please simply say so.

5 Does that all make sense to you?

6 Mr. Decarlo. Yes.

7 All right. And I'm just going to go over a couple more things before

8 we begin.

9 So, first, it is important that you understand that this interview is voluntary. If at

10 any time you would like to stop speaking with us, that is your choice. Similarly, if at any

11 point you need to discuss something with your attorney in private, please let us know,

12 and we will take a break so you can have that conversation with Mr. Feitel.

13 And, second, this interview is not under oath, but, because this is a formal

14 congressional investigation, you are obligated under Federal law to tell the truth, the

15 same as if you were speaking with the FBI or DOJ. It is unlawful to deliberately provide

16 false information to Congress, and, for this interview, providing false statements could

17 result in criminal penalties for those false statements.

18 Do you understand, Mr. Decarlo?

19 Mr. Decarlo. Yes.

20 - Thank you.

21 Third, you are not obligated to keep the fact of this interview and what we discuss

22 confidential. You are free to tell whomever you wish that you met with us, including the

23 prosecutor or judge on your case, or you can tell no one at all. That is your decision.

24 But, also, it is our House deposition rules that you cannot record this interview.

25 So can you please confirm, Mr. Decarlo, that you are not recording this interview?
 5

1 Mr. Decarlo. I confirm I'm not recording this interview.

2 Thank you so much.

3 The select committee is separate and independent from the Department of

4 Justice. We have no involvement with the prosecutions, and the DOJ is not a partner of

5 the select committee in its investigation.

6 The select committee also is not a party to your criminal case, and it is not

7 agreeing to submit anything on your behalf to the judge. Nor can we make any

8 representation whether, if you tell the judge you met with us, that the judge will be more

9 favorable to you during sentencing.

10 And, lastly, we are not going to share the substance of what you said with the

11 Department of Justice prior to your sentencing, but there are a couple of possible

12 exceptions to our general practice. If you told us about evidence of a crime that we

13 thought law enforcement was unaware of or if we had reason to believe that you lied

14 during this interview, then we would be obligated to tell the Department of Justice or

15 another appropriate law enforcement agency.

16 And if you tell the judge that you met with us, just understand that that may

17 prompt questions from the judge about what you said and whether it is consistent with

18 your prior statements and acceptances of responsibilities, and, if the judge starts asking

19 questions, we may get asked to respond and divulge what you said.

20 So, all that being said, just, you know, let us know if you need any breaks as we're

21 going along, or, as I said, if you'd like to discuss anything with Mr. Feitel, we are happy to

22 accommodate that.

23 All right. So any questions before we get started on all of that?

24 Mr. Decarlo. No.

25 Great. Thank you.

 6

1 EXAMINATION

2 BY

3 Q So we'll start with just some basic background information, Mr. Decarlo.

4 Where did you grow up?

5 A I grew up in Phoenix, Arizona.

6 Q Okay. And how long did you live in Phoenix?

7 A Fifteen years.

8 Q All right. And where do you live now?

9 A Tennessee.

10 Q Okay. Have you lived in Tennessee for most of your adult life, then?

11 A No. No. Before this, I lived in Fort Worth.

12 Q Fort Worth, Texas, correct?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Okay. What is your educational background?

15 A Dropped out of high school.

16 Q Okay. Do you have any military or law enforcement service in your

17 background?

18 A No.

19 Q Okay. And are you currently employed?

20 A No.

21 Q Okay. What was your last prior career or job?

22 A Last week was when it ended. I've been employed for the last 4 months as

23 a service advisor for Christian Brothers Automotive.

24 Q And that's in Tennessee, I assume?

25 A Yes.
 7

1 Q Okay. So what is your -- you have a logo on the screen, MT Media. What

2 is that?

3 A It's a media brand.

4 Q What's the -- is the name of it "Murder the Media"?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And are you still working with Murder the Media?

7 A Yes.

8 Q What is your role with the organization?

9 A I do live shows, occasional posts, and prerecorded content.

10 Q Okay. And how long have you been with Murder the Media?

11 A Three years. Maybe 4 years.

12 Q Okay. Are you someone who -- did you, like, found this company or --

13 A Yes.

14 Q Okay. And with whom?

15 A An associate of mine.

16 Q What's his name?

17 A Justin Dunn.

18 Q Does Justin Dunn have, like, on online handle or some alternate pseudonym

19 he goes by?

20 A Yeah, he has a few of them.

21 Q Can you name them, please?

22 A Off the top of my head, Viii Nomerly.

23 Q Okay. So, when --

24 Can you spell that?

25 - Oh, yeah. Can you spell that, please?

 8

1 Mr. Decarlo. V-i-1-1, Nomerly, N-o-m-e-r-1-y.

2 - Okay. So I think we'll probably get into some of these chats later,

3 but when there's a Viii Nomerly in your chat, you Telegram messages, that is Mr. Justin

4 Dunn, correct?

5 Mr. Decarlo. Yes.

6 - Okay. Thank you.

7 Do you receive income from MT Media?

8 Mr. Decarlo. Sometimes, yeah.

9 Give us an --

10 Mr. Decarlo. Not much.

11 Give us an approximate, how much you receive per year.

12 Mr. Decarlo. Two grand.

13 BY

14 Q Is that advertisements mostly or donations?

15 A Donations.

16 Q Okay.

17 And just another quick background question. Have you ever worked for any

18 government agency -- Federal, State, local -- in the past?

19 A No.

20 Q All right. Thank you.

21 Now, Mr. Decarlo, are you now or have you ever been a Proud Boy?

22 A I was. I stopped associating with them as a group, probably 2019.

23 Q Okay. Can you -- we'll get to why you stopped, but first we're interested,

24 were you in a certain chapter of the Proud Boys?

25 A I was.
 9

1 Q Which one?

2 A DFW.

3 Q What does that stand for?

4 A Dallas-Fort Worth.

5 Q Okay. And did you have a position within the Proud Boys?

6 A I was just kind of there.

7 Q Okay. So then, I guess, tell us a little bit of why you decided to join the

8 Proud Boys.

9 A It was something totally different when it started. It was just sort of a, you

10 know, group of guys who thought similarly who wanted to get out, get away from their

11 families, you know, for 1 day a month and, you know, just have a couple beers with some

12 guys, and that's pretty much it. That's how it started.

13 Q So when did you join?

14 A March 2017.

15 Q And when you say, like, just guys who thought of, like, going out once a

16 month, can you expand on that a little bit? Like, what were you guys gathering to do?

17 A Really just, like, build each other up as men, you know? Just, it was a guys'

18 club.

19 Q And how did you hear about this guys' club?

20 A From watching "The Gavin Mcinnes Show."

21 Q Okay.

22 At the time you were a member of the Proud Boys, can you give us a little sense

23 about what the organization was like? Like, what was the structure? Was there a

24 structure? You know, just some details about that.

25 A I mean, I started -- I kind of left after they started adding structure and stuff
 10

1 to it, but -- can you ask the question again? I'm sorry.

2 Q Sure. Like, while you were a member of the Proud Boys, you said you were

3 part of a chapter.

4 A Yeah.

5 Q So I'm wondering how, like, the chapter, the DFW chapter worked. Was

6 there a State chapter? A national chapter?

7 A There were --

8 Q Was there a process -- oh, go ahead.

9 A Sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off.

10 Q No, you're fine. We'll start there.

11 A There were a few chapters in the State.

12 As far as structure within the chapter, I mean, there was a president and a vice

13 president, but they really didn't organize anything outside of just, you know, where we'd

14 meet up.

15 Q Okay. And at these meet-ups, what were the conversation about in

16 general?

17 A Just our lives.

18 Q Was it very political during the time you were a member?

19 A It was a little political, but, I mean, it was -- it wasn't -- it wasn't, like, our

20 main focus of being there. But, yeah, a lot of people did happen to support Trump.

21 Q Right. But were you going to rallies together for President Trump at the

22 time?

23 A Some would.

24 Q Okay.

25 A Some would. Not all of us.

 11

1 Q Right. So did the chapter -- so, like, would the DFW chapter or another

2 chapter that you're aware of organize Proud Boys to go to Trump rallies or other political

3 rallies?

4 A I mean, as small groups, yeah.

5 Q And I'm sorry if I'm not being clear. So you mentioned there was a

6 president or a vice president.

7 A Yeah.

8 Q I'm wondering if, like, the structure of the Proud Boys, the organization

9 itself, would send, like, an email or a text or a Telegram or whatever saying, Hey, guys,

10 let's all meet up at this Trump rally, X date, X time?

11 A Right. It wouldn't really be like the president organizing the chapter to do

12 it. Sometimes it would be, you know, a couple people within the group would just

13 decide to go do it.

14 Q Understood. Thank you.

15 And did you know an Enrique Tarrio while you were a member of the Proud Boys?

16 A Loosely.

17 Q Loosely. Was he chairman while you were a member of the Proud Boys?

18 A When they started introducing a chairman and elders, that's when I stopped

19 associating with it.

20 You said earlier you stopped associating when they started

21 bringing in structure, "they" being the Proud Boys, and you just gave an example of

22 chairman or elders. What are some other examples of the structure that was being

23 brought in when you decided to leave?

24 Mr. Decarlo. It got more political. It got more, like -- like, okay, so, when I

25 joined, it was three general rules. It was, like, venerate the housewife, honor the
 12

1 entrepreneur -- I forget the third one. You know what I mean? It was just sort of, like,

2 things we agreed on.

3 And then they started adding, I think they called them tenets. And it was, like,

4 you know, basically things -- they started trying to label everybody in the group as, like,

5 "This is everything we stand for, specifically," and I didn't, so --

6 What triggered -- do you know what triggered these changes in

7 2019 that you're describing?

8 Mr. Decarlo. I think it was e-celebrities just trying to use it to gain attention.

9 Do you have a sense of whether it was coming from Mr. Tarrio

10 himself or other people down the line who were adding these tenets?

11 Mr. Decarlo. I think it was a combination of both. It was people seeing that

12 they gained attention by going to rallies and stuff, and they sort of fed on that and added

13 structure and, you know, started to organize as a nationwide group places they would go

14 to, you know, rallies and whatnot.

15 And sorry to be casual about this, but did they just like the fame,

16 like, the internet fame from it?

17 Mr. Decarlo. Yeah.

18 Okay.

19 Mr. Decarlo. No, that's exactly what it is. It's, they saw they got attention,

20 they saw they got, you know, on viral videos and everything and -- yeah.

21 BY

22 Q How much of that perceived fame was tied to going to these political rallies

23 or becoming a more political organization?

24 A Most of it. Yeah.

25 Q All right. And that was mostly Republican politics?

 13

1 A Yeah.

2 Q Do you think it was more President Trump or the Republican Party larger?

3 A I'd say 50-50.

4 Q Okay.

5 And I'll ask you, then -- you mentioned it a little bit, about the organization

6 becoming more political, but can you be more explicit about why you decided to

7 disassociate with the Proud Boys in 2019?

8 A So, when I joined, like I said, it was sort of a men's group, like, a

9 one-night-a-month beer-drinking club with people that just kind of agreed with each

10 other on, you know, a lot of things. By the time I left -- by the time I left, it seemed

11 more like the majority of the people that started to join, they wanted to become political

12 activists. And I wasn't really --1 didn't join for that reason.

13 Q All right. Did you notice a -- how did you notice this besides the tenets?

14 Was there a change in, sort of, the conversations that were being had at these meetings

15 or through chats?

16 A Well, it wasn't the meetings that I would go to. My group was always fairly

17 not politically active in that. But, yeah, it was sort of, like -- what's the word I'm looking

18 for? Like, a shift in the energy, you know?

19 Q Gotcha.

20 I'm going to list a couple Proud Boys and ask if you know them.

21 Do you know Ethan Nordean?

22 A Loosely.

23 Q And how do you know him?

24 A I've met him through friends of friends.

25 Q Were these at Proud Boy meet-ups?

 14

1 A No, they weren't meet-ups.

2 Q So then how did you meet him, or --

3 A Like, parties.

4 Q Okay. And were these Proud Boy parties or just regular parties?

5 A Little bit of both.

6 Q Okay. And how many times would you say you've met Mr. Nordean?

7 A Two or three times.

8 Q Okay. And was that in 2020? Earlier than 2020?

9 A Let's see. Once in 2020 and then one or two times before that.

10 Q So were you still going to parties with Proud Boys after you disassociated

11 with the organization?

12 A I mean, I've made friends in the group, you know. I would still associate

13 with those friends. I just didn't feel like being, you know, part of that organization or

14 anything.

15 Q Right.

16 How about a Joseph Biggs?

17

18 Q Sorry about that.

19 So I know you just said you knew Mr. Nordean. What was your impression of

20 him?

21 A I don't know. Just seemed like an average guy.

22 Q Was an elder at that point?

23 A Honestly, I don't recall who was and who wasn't.

24 Q Did he appear to be in any form of leadership within the Proud Boys when

25 you met him?

 15

1 A I'd say more --

2 Q Or a leader in general?

3 A I'd say more influence than leader.

4 Q Why do you say "influence"? Help us understand that.

5 A I mean, there was the chairman, right? Enrique. He would organize

6 things. And then, you know, he'd have sort of a close-knit group of people that followed

7 him around.

8 Q So Mr. --

9 A An entourage.

10 Q So Mr. Nordean appeared to be in Mr. Tarrio's, kind of, inner circle?

11 A Yeah.

12 Q Okay.

13 BY

14 Q With Mr. Tarrio being the clear -- I guess "leader" is the best word for it.

15 But he was above Nordean and sort of influencing Nordean on what to do?

16 A Correct.

17 Q All right. Thank you.

18 And, then, did you ever meet a Joseph Biggs?

19 A Same as Ethan Nordean. Met him a couple times.

20 Q Okay. And same question about, what was your impression of Mr. Biggs?

21 A Pretty much same as Ethan Nordean. Just seemed like an average guy.

22 Q And were you aware of his position with the Proud Boys when you met him?

23 A I was aware he kind of latched on to the group. But I don't think he was

24 ever really in it; he was just sort of around it to gain attention.

25 Q How did he latch on?

 16

1 A Just start going to, you know, their rallies and whatnot and, you know, be

2 part of Enrique's circle.

3 Q Okay. But you don't think he was really part of the Proud Boys

4 organization; more just he knew Tarrio?

5 A Correct.

6 Q Okay.

7 Do you know a Zachary Rehl --

8 A No.

9 Q -- R-e-h-1?

10 A I don't.

11 Q Dominic Pezzola, P-e-z-z-o-1-a?

12 A No.

13 Q All right.

14 A Charles Donohoe, or "Donohue," depending on how you pronounce it,

15 D-o-n-o-h-o-e?

16 A The names sounds familiar, but -- might've met him in passing.

17 Q But nothing that you can recollect?

18 A I couldn't even put a face to the name.

19 Q Okay.

20 And, then, how do you know Mr. Nicholas Ochs, O-c-h-s?

21 A Nick Ochs and I --

22 Q "Ochs." Sorry.

23 A Yeah. Ochs and I met online. And we had similar interests with running

24 media channels and whatnot and kind of became friends from that.

25 Q Did you meet online through the Proud Boys?

 17

1 A Yes.

2 Q Is Mr. Ochs a Proud Boy leader from Hawaii?

3 A I don't know if he is still a leader or even still in it, but when we met, yes.

4 And you said "online." What specifically online? How did you

5 meet? Like, was it an app --

6 Mr. Decarlo. Facebook. Sorry.

7 Facebook? Okay. Thank you. That's all I needed.

8 Mr. Decarlo. Yeah. I wasn't trying to cut you off.

9 No, you didn't. I was rambling. That works.

10 Mr. Decarlo. Okay.

11 BY

12 Q All right. So Facebook. Was this a Proud Boys Facebook, like, group?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Okay. And did he also help start Murder the Media?

15 A He sort of joined on later.

16 Q Did you attend Proud Boy events with Mr. Ochs?

17 A No. It was more just parties we hung out at.

18 Q When he lived in Hawaii, did you go to Hawaii to party --

19 A No.

20 Q -- with him?

21 A No.

22 Q Where would you meet up for parties?

23 A Uhhh. Trying to remember. Yeah, I don't remember. We've met at a

24 few.

25 Q Was it, like, a handful, or was this a common occurrence?

 18

1 A Handful. Small handful.

2 Q Were these near where you live in Texas, or were you traveling for these

3 parties? I'm just trying to get a sense of, like --

4 A Traveled.

5 Q Okay. And was it --

6 A I don't -- I don't recall -- I'm sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off again.

7 don't recall hanging out with him in Texas.

8 Q Okay. But would you say that you hung out with him at Proud Boy -- you

9 know, either people who were Proud Boys' parties or parties that had some sort of

10 connection to Proud Boys?

11 A Some sort of connection.

12 Q Got it.

13 All right. So, even though you left in 2019, moving forward from 2019, were you

14 still in any Proud Boys Telegram chats, Signal chats, Facebook groups? You know, keep

15 going down the social media/messaging list; were you in any of those moving forward?

16 A I'm not allowed on most social media, especially around when I got kicked

17 off. I'm sorry. When I left Proud Boys, I was kicked off of most social media.

18 I don't recall any groups that I was in associated with Proud Boys. Typically tried

19 to stay away from them.

20 Q Was this, as soon as 2019 happened you tried to stay away from them? Is

21 that what you're saying?

22 A Yeah. I tried to have no online presence with them at all or -- you know.

23 Q Okay. So, just to be clear, you were not still in groups where Proud Boys

24 were talking about attending rallies or other things after you disassociated in 2019?

25 A Not that I recall.

 19

1 Q Okay. So were you at all aware of Proud Boys' conversations around the

2 November 2020 election or thereafter about protesting the November 2020 election?

3 A No.

4 Q Was Mr. Ochs in any of those conversations?

5 A Not that I know of. I don't know what conversations he was in.

6 Q Did he ever talk to you about what the Proud Boys were discussing about the

7 November 2020 election?

8 A No.

9 Q Did you ever hear anything from any other Proud Boys or Mr. Ochs himself

10 about January 6, 2021, ahead of time?

11 A No.

12 Q Okay. Did you ever hear about any plans in general from Proud Boys about

13 how they were going to protest the 2020 election?

14 A No.

15 Q Okay.

16 One second.

17 Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. Decarlo. We are going to move on sort of to

18 the lead-up into January 6th and how you ended up going.

19 So, you know, you mentioned leaving the Proud Boys because of their political

20 activity in 2019. Can you just describe to us a little bit about your level of political

21 engagement around the November 2020 election? So, you know, some of months

22 leading up to it and sort of right after it.

23 A Sure. All of my political engagement that I've taken part in is criticism,

24 satire, and making fun of anyone who really takes a left or right stance on anything. And

25 that includes leading up to the 2020 election and during the 2020 election, after the 2020
 20

1 election.

2 Q So is it fair to say you were paying attention to politics at that time, though?

3 A Loosely. What I could bear.

4 Q And what kind of media were you consuming as a member of a group called

5 Murder the Media?

6 A Mostly criticizing journalists and their skewed coverage on both sides.

7 Q So, sorry, were you consuming, like, watching CNN, watching FOX? Were

8 you getting most of your news from social media? What was your main source of news

9 at this time?

10 A Sort of a mix of all of it.

11 Q Okay.

12 And what platforms did you use to -- I guess "display" is the wrong word -- talk

13 about your views on what was happening?

14 A Olive, when we were allowed on there, and Telegram.

15 Q What is Olive?

16 A Olive is a streaming platform.

17 Q Is it sort of like Twitch? Forgive my ignorance.

18 A No, you're good. Similar to Twitch or VouTube Live, stuff like that.

19 Q I honestly did not know VouTube had a live function. - l i k e s to make

20 fun of me for being a luddite. Anyway.

21 So, Mr. Decarlo, did you personally think the election was stolen from former

22 President Trump?

23 A I honestly think every election's rigged. I think everybody's sort of put in

24 there, no one's really voted for. So -- yeah.

25 Q Can you expand on that a little bit?

 21

1 A I think if voting meant anything, the powers that be wouldn't let us do it.

2 think it's all a show.

3 Q So who is choosing who wins the elections?

4 A I don't know.

5 Q Well, I'm just wondering because, you know, you're mentioning you think

6 every election is rigged and if voting really mattered we wouldn't be allowed to do it. So

7 who is sort of pulling the strings here to stop our votes from meaning anything?

8 A I couldn't tell you specifically. I don't know who. But I'm sure there's

9 forces at work.

10 Q And why do you have that belief?

11 A Why do I have that belief? Because politics is divided by left and right, and

12 I think the world is much more complicated than that, and there's a purposeful division of

13 left and right to keep people divided.

14 Q Okay.

15 So I guess, then, were you a supporter of President Trump in the lead-up to the

16 2020 election?

17 A No.

18 Q Were you paying attention to what President Trump was saying in the

19 lead-up to the 2020 election?

20 A Not a lot.

21 Q So none of what he was saying, then, was influencing your beliefs about the

22 elections being rigged?

23 A No.

24 Q All right.

25 Do you have any followup?

 22

1 No. I'll ask more later.

2 BY-

3 Q Did you attend either the November 14th or December 12th rallies in

4 Washington, D.C.?

5 A I didn't.

6 Q All right.

7 Did you attend any Stop the Steal rallies related to January 6th?

8 Mr. Decarlo. Other than January 6th?

9 Yes.

10 Mr. Decarlo. No.

11 Okay.

12 BY

13 Q Were you following the "stop the steal" messaging online in the lead-up to

14 January 6th?

15 A No.

16 Q All right.

17 I'm going to assume this one's a no. Did you participate in any activities to

18 contest the 2020 election -- you know, gathering affidavits for President Trump's legal

19 challenges, raising money, donating money, anything like that?

20 A No.

21 Q Okay.

22 So, I guess, why did you decide to go to Washington, D.C., on January 6th?

23 A I went out there for some coverage of my channel -- for the channel, I mean.

24 I went out there to sort of mock people at the rally. It was more to make videos for

25 comedic purposes and poke fun.

 23

1 Q Okay.

2 BY
3 Q When you say "mock people," who were you mocking?

4 A Trump supporters.

5 Q Okay. So, like, for example, in your statement of offense, when it says, in

6 your words, you were there in D.C. to "expose those tolerant leftists for their lies and

7 teach them a lesson they'll never forget; the MAGA train will keep on rolling; Trump 2020,

8 baby," that's satire?

9 A Sir, if you could see the post that it came from, it's absolutely satire.

10 made me and my co-defendant try to sound like "G.I. Joe" characters. All of it was

11 satire.

12 Q And the satire is making fun of those that were actually there protesting that

13 the election had been stolen?

14 A Correct.

15 Q Okay.

16 Is that it?

17 Uh-huh.

18 B~

19 Q So when did you learn about the January 6th rally?

20 A Two days before, maybe three.

21 Q And how did you find out about it?

22 A I was coming home from a New Year's Eve party, and my co-host, Viii

23 Nomerly, was doing a show. I came into the studio, and he said, "Hey, you know, there's

24 this rally going on. You should go cover it." I go, "Okay."

25 Q Do you remember seeing a tweet that might have become a Facebook post
 24

1 or circulated on Parler from former President Trump, it's December 19th, and it says, you

2 know, come to Washington, D.C., "will be wild," promoting the rally on January 6th?

3 A No.

4 Q Okay. And what did you know about what was happening on January 6th

5 when Mr. Dunn asked you to go cover it?

6 A I didn't know a lot. I was under the impression, and so was he, that this

7 was just going to be a small event, like most -- like a lot of the rallies are, with just, I don't

8 know, maybe a thousand people, tops, just screaming in megaphones and, you know,

9 worshipping Trump.

10 Q So, if it was going to be a small event, why go? Why cover it?

11 A To highlight the -- to highlight the whackos in the crowd, the weirdos.

12 But you didn't feel the need to go in November or December or

13 any other events, so help us understand why January 6th was different.

14 Mr. Decarlo. I didn't know any of those events were happening.

15 B~

16 Q Did Mr. Dunn know those events were happening?

17 A I don't think so.

18 Q Did you talk to Mr. Dunn at all about what to expect on January 6th?

19 A Nope. We just made assumptions.

20 Q Assumptions like what?

21 A Like it was going to be a small, you know -- a small rally in scale to what it

22 actually was. Just your typical political protest.

23

24 Q Did he use the word "small"? Because nowhere in the advertising for

25 January 6th was the word "small" ever used. It was always characterized as the biggest
 25

1 protest ever. So that seems weird, that it was described as small to you.

2 A It wasn't described as small to me. We assumed it was going to be a small

3 rally. I, personally -- and I don't believe Viii Nomerly did either -- see any advertising for

4 this event.

5 Q Did you follow Enrique Tarrio on social media in 2020?

6 A Not personally.

7 Q What do you mean, "not personally"?

8 A I run my channel with a few different other people. They might have

9 followed his Parler with our channel. But I don't -- I don't know. I wasn't really -- I'm

10 not that big on stuff like Parler or anything.

11 Q What about your personal account? Did you follow him on your personal

12 account?

13 A I don't recall. I haven't touched it in years.

14 BY

15 Q So I know you're saying that you expected it to be -- well, now I'm making

16 assumptions. Your lawyer produced to us, sort of, the contents of your cell phone that

17 the government took as part of its criminal investigation, and we have a text message

18 conversation with somebody named, I think it's just "Lucas," but the name is "Lu," space,

19 ca pita I "C," -a-s.

20 And on January 5th -- we'll just call him "Lucas" -- he says, "Stay safe, bro. Nick is

21 on his way out there. I gave him something to keep him safe."

22 And then you respond, "Yeah. I'm only going to travel in herd. Nick's got some

23 magazines I'm going to duct tape to myself. I'll probably grab some other stuff

24 tomorrow. Not sure what all I can bring on a plane."

25 So these are from January 5th.

 26

1 A Yeah.

2 Q Before I ask who Lucas is, how does that messaging sort of jibe with what

3 you are telling us about expecting a small --

4 A I --

5 Q -- for lack of a better word --

6 A Sorry.

7 Q -- for lack of a better word, kind of BS rally that you were going to go cover?

8 A I don't know if you've seen videos on YouTube of other small rallies that

9 have been covered, but there have been antifa presence there, there have been

10 dangerous people at a lot of these things. Especially when mentally unhinged people

11 know you're recording them, it make them uncomfortable. It can make them attack

12 you.

13 So that's all it was. Just keeping -- the comment about the magazines was just,

14 you know, in case one of those people, a mentally unhinged person, tried to attack me.

15 Q Well, I guess, how would a magazine help you?

16 A Honestly, I don't know. I didn't do it. I heard it was, like, some kind of

17 prison trick to stop from getting stabbed. I didn't do it, but --

18 Q Okay. You meant -- do you mean, like, Sports Illustrated magazines?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Okay.

21 A Ohhh. Now I --

22 Q Do you want to give a clarification?

23 A Okay. Yeah, no, that -- yeah. All right. That concern makes sense now.

24 Yeah, no. Like, monthly subscription magazines.

25 Mr. Feitel. Mr. Decarlo, not to interrupt, did you intend to use the magazines for
 27

1 self-protection in the event that someone tried to stab you?

2 Mr. Decarlo. Yeah. There was --

3 Mr. Feitel. Or that was the thought?

4 Mr. Decarlo. That was the thought. I could duct tape some sort of an

5 improvised stab-proof vest in case, you know, some lunatic tried to, you know, shiv me

6 from behind for recording them.

8 Q Well, that is -- yeah. That is a clarification.

9 So who is Lucas? And tell me if I'm just not pronouncing this name correctly.

10 A Yeah, I believe it's "Lucas." I don't know if even that's his real name. He's

11 just someone who's followed my channel. And he, you know, talks to Nick Ochs on line,

12 too, as far as I'm aware.

13 Q Do you know if he's friends with Mr. Ochs?

14 A I would imagine, to a degree.

15 Q Okay.

16 And, later on in this text message, Lucas says, "But also stay with the boys.

17 Safety in numbers." And you say, "For sure. Always traveling in herd. However,

18 Lucas, I have a job to do. I gotta stop this steal."

19 So, first, then, "also stay with the boys" and you say "for sure," is that in reference

20 to the Proud Boys?

21 A No. In reference to "the boys" was -- the original plan, January 5th, was:

22 Milo Yiannopoulos was going to attend this event. Nick Ochs worked for him. And we

23 were going to sort of follow his entourage to try to, you know, interview bigger names,

24 Milo included.

25 Q Okay. And have you met Mr. Yiannopoulos?

 28

1 A No.

2 Q But you did mention "I gotta stop this steal." So when did you become of

3 the phrase "stop the steal"?

4 A I was aware it was called the "Stop the Steal rally," but that's all I knew about

5 it. I mean, there's --

6 Q What is --

7 A I'm sorry.

8 Q No, no. Keep going. Keep going.

9 A Oh, no, I was just going to say, like, there's other rallies that have been, like,

10 "End Domestic Terrorism rally," and it's like, that's still a thing. You know what I mean?

11 So I figured it was just going to be sort of this. Like, they're gonna shout, "Stop the

12 steal," and that's all that's gonna happen.

13 Q Yeah. What did "stop the steal" mean to you as of January 3rd, 4th, 5th

14 when you learned about this January 6th rally?

15 A The phrase "stop the steal" was in reference to the, quote/unquote, stolen

16 election.

17 Q Right. So, then, what did you think people were gathering in Washington,

18 D.C., on January 6th to do?

19 A Scream and holler and worship Trump, I guess, and -- yeah.

20 Q And what did you hope to --

21 A That --

22 Q Right. But if they're going to stop the steal, did you have any sense of what

23 they were hoping all of that shouting would accomplish?

24 A No, I didn't think anything like what happened would happen. Like I said,

25 there have been other rallies, like "End Child Abuse rally," but children are still abused.
 29

1 You know what I mean? Nothing's done about it except people shout and wave signs.

2 I figured it was just going to be shouting, waving signs, and -- you know.

3 Q Were you aware that Congress was meeting to certify the electoral vote for

4 President Joe Biden on January 6th?

5 A I don't remember.

6 Q Were you aware that Vice President Pence had a role, a ceremonial role, in

7 that certification?

8 A I don't remember when I learned that, to be -- I don't remember if I was

9 aware of that before or after.

10 Q Okay.

11 And so, I guess, then, were you -- how did you plan so quickly for this trip? Did

12 you fund raise for it? Did you pay out of pocket? Who were you planning to travel

13 with? If you want to just give a quick little rundown of all that.

14 A Sure.

15 Part of it, a small amount, was fund raised over a day, I believe, roughly 150 bucks.

16 I think it covered one way of travel. One of you quoted my ridiculous fundraiser that

17 was, you know, targeted at my audience. It was all just for laughs. And the rest was

18 out of pocket.

19 And I planned on meeting up with Ochs, sharing a hotel room, and then going

20 there the next day.

21 Q Did Mr. Ochs have any plans to meet up with Proud Boys in Washington,

22 D.C.?

23 A I'm not sure.

24 Q Did you have any plans to meet up with any of your friends who were Proud

25 Boys while you were in Washington, D.C.?

 30

1 A I think I expected to see some people I knew that were in it there at the rally,

2 but I don't recall actually meeting or planning to meet with anybody.

3 Why did you believe you would see some people that you

4 knew -- I'm assuming Proud Boys that you knew?

5 Mr. Decarlo. Because when I've seen video of these rallies, I always recognize,

6 you know, one or two people.

7 BY

8 Q Did you talk to any of the -- any of your friends about whether they would

9 attend?

10 A I think I asked some people if they were going to be there.

11 Q Well, did this include people like Ethan Nordean or Joseph Biggs or any other

12 Proud Boys?

13 A It wasn't with who you mentioned. Some of them I asked if they were

14 gonna be there might have been Proud Boys. But, again, I don't recall who I asked or

15 didn't ask.

16 Q And did they relay to you any of the plans of the Proud Boys group more

17 largely on January 6th?

18 A No.

19 Q Okay.

20 So you were planning to meet Mr. Ochs there. Were you planning to meet up

21 with anybody else besides Mr. Ochs and Mr. Viannopoulos?

22 A I don't remember. No, I don't think so.

23 - Do you have any followup? I'm going to go through a couple

24 names.
 31

1 - Allright.

2 B~

3 Q So we also got a production of one of your Murder the Media, I think it's a

4 Telegram chat. So I'm going to ask about a couple of people in there.

5 Who is Bennet Chapman, B-e-n-n-e-t, C-h-a-p-m-a-n?

6 A I wouldn't call him a friend, necessarily, but someone I know from DFW.

7 Q Okay. So he is a Proud Boy?

8 A I don't know if --

9 Q Oh, sorry.

10 A -- he still is, but he was.

11 Q I should not have made that assumption. Were you using "DFW" as the

12 Proud Boys chapter or just the Dallas-Fort Worth area?

13 A I was using it as the Dallas-Fort Worth area. I probably should've just said

14 "Dallas," but -- yeah.

15 Q Okay. And did you meet Mr. Chapman through the Proud Boys?

16 A I did.

17 Q Do you remember what you talked about ahead of January 6th?

18 A I don't remember.

19 Q Do you know if Mr. Chapman went to Washington, D.C., on January 6th?

20 A I believe he did.

21 Q Did you meet up with him?

22 A No.

23 Q Okay.

24 And who is Chris Gambino, G-a-m-b-i-n-o?

25 A He's someone I know from Texas.

 32

1 Q Is he a Proud Boy?

2 A I don't know if he still is or isn't.

3 Q So at one time he was a Proud Boy?

4 A Yes.

5 Q All right. And do you know if he attended the rally in Washington, D.C., on

6 January 6th?

7 A If he did, I never heard about it and never saw him there.

8 Q Okay.

9 And who is Rory, R-o-r-y, Reddington, R-e-d-d-i-n-g-t-o-n?

10 A A friend of mine.

11 Q Is this another Proud Boys friend?

12 A He was at one point.

13 Q Okay.

14 And, in the conversations we have, after January 6th it seems he tried to put you

15 in touch with someone named Augustus lnvictus. Do you know who Mr. -- and I'll spell

16 that. A-u-g-u-s-t-u-s, 1-n-v-i-c-t-u-s.

17 Did you ever talk to or meet Mr. lnvictus?

18 A Spoke with him on the phone.

19 Q Okay. Not getting into any possible attorney-client-privilege stuff, do you

20 know anything else about Mr. lnvictus other than that conversation?

21 A I know he's an attorney.

22 Q All right. But you don't know if he was also in Washington, D.C., on

23 January 6th?

24 A I have no idea.

25 Q Got it.
 33

1 And, then, who calls himself "Mccrum" -- M, lowercase C, capital C, -r-u-m -- in

2 your Murder the Media group chat?

3 A A friend of mine.

4 Q What's his name?

5 A Mccrum.

6 Q Is that his last name? First name?

7 A That's his last name.

8 Q And what's his first name?

9 A Jason.

10 Q And what is his involvement with Murder the Media?

11 A He does videos with us.

12 Q Okay.

13 A Sometimes.

14 Q Just without, like, going quote by quote in the chat, it seems he was a

15 little -- was pretty sympathetic to what was happening on January 6th and expressed his

16 desire to be there. So there seemed to be a lot of positive talk around what happened

17 that day.

18 Were people in this group chat, you know, proud of what happened on

19 January 6th?

20 A I'm not sure. I don't pay attention to my chat that often.

21 Q Okay. How well do you know Mccrum?

22 A A good friend of mine.

23 Q Would you say that he wanted to be in Washington, D.C., on January 6th?

24 A I'm -- I think he exprec- -- wow, I can't talk. I think he expressed interest

25 before it happened.
 34

1 Q Okay. Is Mr. Mccrum a Proud Boy?

2 A No.

3 Q Okay.

4 Just a couple more. Sorry.

5 Pierce Benefield, P-i-e-r-c-e, B-e-n-e-f-i-e-1-d, who is he?

6 A Oh. Oh, sorry, you were asking who he was.

7 Q Yes. Sorry.

8 A He was a former Proud Boy, and he did a podcast on my channel.

9 Q Was he a Georgia Proud Boy leader?

10 A I don't know if he was a leader, but I know he was in that.

11 Q Do you know when he left?

12 A I don't. I don't remember.

13 Q Before or after January 6th? I could've just asked that. I'm sorry.

14 A Before, I believe.

15 Q Okay.

16 And then the last, there's a person, Zumbo Fieri, Z-u-m-b-o, capital F-i-e-r-i.

17 A The name sounds familiar, but I don't know who that is.

18 Q Okay.

19 So we talked a little bit about you wearing, you know, magazines to protect

20 against stabbing. Were you aware -- were you concerned about any other violence that

21 day, you know, from Proud Boys or other people, besides what you were worried about

22 with the people in the crowd?

23 A All I knew of was the possibility of, you know, agitated unhinged people

24 being there.

25 Q Okay.
 35

1 So, on the night of January 5th, Nick Ochs texted your Murder the Media chat and

2 said, "Tomorrow's gonna be fine, whatever the case. We'll figure it out." I think you

3 were talking about where you were going to stay, or the group was.

4 "Not to be lazy, but we are both gonna wanna shower and maybe nap before

5 the," in all caps, "NIGHT VIOLENCE."

6 Do you know what Mr. Ochs was expecting?

7 A No. I know he was probably more aware of what the rally was supposed to

8 be, but I -- no.

9 Do you recall if Mr. Ochs had a relationship with Mr. Tarrio or Mr.

10 Nordean or any of the elders we talked about earlier?

11 Mr. Decarlo. I don't -- I don't know what his relationship was with them --

12 Do you recall --

13 Mr. Decarlo. -- other than --

14 I'm sorry. Keep going.

15 Mr. Decarlo. Sorry. Other than Proud Boys.

16 Do you recall him ever -- like, was he still in communication with

17 them?

18 Mr. Decarlo. He might've been. It didn't come up, though.

19 BY

20 Q All right. One reason we're asking is, also on January 5th, Mr. Dunn, I

21 guess, added you in the chat and said, "Enrique is supposedly banned from D.C." -- I

22 suppose that's Mr. Tarrio -- "but y'all are in Virginia. You might try to hang out and

23 stream a little with him tonight to help get eyes on us tomorrow."

24 So did you have or did Mr. Ochs have enough of a relationship with Mr. Tarrio to

25 get him on one of your streams?

 36

1 A I mean, I probably had enough of a relationship. Like I said, I loosely knew

2 him. But, you know, I wouldn't call him a friend or anything.

3 Q So, I guess, yeah, let's back up a little bit. How did you know Mr. Tarrio?

4 A Same way I met Ochs, a Facebook group.

5 Q And did you meet him at parties in person ever?

6 A Once.

7 Q Okay. Were you in contact with Mr. Tarrio around January 6th through

8 Telegram chats, whatever?

9 A Yeah. We would share each other's posts --

10 Q Is that the only --

11 A -- to try to --

12 Q Is that the only way you two were in touch?

13 A I mean, we'd call each other about, you know, talking about our channels

14 and boosting each other's numbers and everything.

15 Q How often were you calling Mr. Tarrio?

16 A I want to say, like, once every few weeks. But, you know, when I would try

17 to contact him, he typically wouldn't answer, so I'd just keep calling him.

18 And were you in any Telegram group chats with Mr. Tarrio?

19 Mr. Decarlo. I believe he was in mine. But typically his stuff was all patriotic

20 stuff, and I -- you know, political stuff, I mean. I didn't care to be in any of those chats.

21 So were you in the Ministry of Self-Defense?

22 Mr. Decarlo. No.

23 BY-

24 Q Which chat of yours was he in?

25 A Murder the Media.

 37

1 Q What was his handle?

2 A I don't remember.

3 Q Okay. Did you try to call Mr. Tarrio ahead of January 6th to set up a

4 livestream?

5 A I do remember trying to call him and see if he would do some kind of

6 recording with me.

7 Q Did you get him on the phone?

8 A Yes.
 38

2 [5:00 p.m.]

3 BY-

4 Q And can you describe that conversation for us?

5 A I mean, it would just, you know, be a very loose description now.

6 Essentially, you know, Hey, I heard you got kicked out of D.C. Want to talk about it on

7 video?

8 And he said, Yeah.

9 Q It was that short? Were there any more details? Did you ask him where

10 he was, what he was doing, why he got kicked out?

11 A I asked -- I'm sorry. I did ask him where he was. He was too far out of the

12 way. We never made it happen.

13 Q Okay. Did he talk to you -- did he talk at all about January 6th during this

14 conversation?

15 A No. No, he just -- he mentioned he's kicked out of D.C. so he can't attend

16 the protest.

17 Q Did he say that he wanted to attend?

18 A No. I mean, I would imagine he was there, so --you know, he flew out to

19 D.C. I would imagine he wanted to be there, but he didn't tell me, hey, I want to be in

20 D.C. right now.

21 Q Did he say he'd be paying attention to what the Proud Boys were doing on

22 January 6th?

23 A It wasn't talked about.

24 Q How would you describe sort of his demeanor in this phone call?

25 A A little aggravated.
 39

1 Q Sort of mad that he wasn't there or aggravated about the situation?

2 A Aggravated at the situation that got him kicked out.

3 Q And I'm guessing this call was on January 5th. Were you already in D.C.

4 when you made the call or in the D.C. area?

5 A Honestly, I don't remember where exactly -- I was in the area. I can't tell

6 you if I was in D.C. or not when I actually called him.

7 Q All right. But do you think it was January 5th then when you called him?

8 A Probably.

9 One second.

10

11 Q Going back, are you familiar with a group called the Oath Keepers?

12 A I mean, I knew of their existence. I know they were kind of Proud Boys. It

13 was starting to seem like it was taking a turn towards that sort of group. And that's all I

14 knew about Oath Keepers.

15 Q When did you think that the Proud Boys were starting to take a turn towards

16 the Oath Keepers group?

17 A When I quit.

18 Q Okay. So in that 2019 range when there were more rules and things of that

19 nature?

20 A Yes.

21 Q So it felt like the Proud Boys at that point was moving from like this drinking

22 club you described to more like a militia?

23 A Maybe militia is a bit heavy of a word, but something close to that, yeah.

24 Q Did you ever hear any other Proud Boys talking about the Oath Keepers or

25 anything like that?

 40

1 A Typically, they made fun of them.

2 Q Made fun of them how?

3 A I don't know. Called them nerds and stuff, larpers, stuff like that.

4 Q So, I guess, help me understand then, if they make fun of them for being

5 nerds and larpers, then why was the organization of Proud Boys kind of moving in that

6 direction of the Oath Keepers?

7 A They thought they were better than them.

8 Q The Proud Boys thought they were better than the Oath Keepers?

9 A Yeah.

10 Q Okay. And did they see a space that the Oath Keepers kind of operate in,

11 the Proud Boys thought they could operate in that space?

12 A I mean, I guess if by space you mean like rallies, yeah.

13 Q And what within the rallies did the Proud Boys think they could do that the

14 Oath Keepers were currently doing? Like protection?

15 A Protection for speakers, shouting at protesters, stuff like that.

16 Q Did you ever hear Mr. Tarrio talk about this?

17 A Talk about --

18 Q Like getting more involved in this space of protection at rallies, things of that

19 nature.

20 A I mean, he was making it pretty obvious that's where the direction was

21 going. I don't recall him saying it verbatim. But, yeah, it was pretty obvious --

22 Q Do you recall --

23 A -- the direction it was taking. Sorry.

24 Q Do you recall Mr. Tarrio having a relationship with any Oath Keepers?

25 A No.
 41

1 Q Do you recall any Proud Boys that you know having a relationship with the

2 Oath Keepers?

3 A No.

4 Q And I want to go to another big just overarching theme. I think earlier you

5 said something about you were going on January 6th, and I think you were making fun of

6 folks because people would say -- praise Trump, I think was the word you used.

7 Do you think a lot of the people came to D.C. on January 6th because of Donald

8 Trump?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Explain. Help us understand that, like, why people, in your opinion, came

11 to D.C.

12 A I mean, the same reason they go to any of these rightwing protests.

13 just -- I figured they were going to, you know -- I don't know -- go there as just a rightwing

14 protest in support of Trump.

15 Q Do you think they were inspired to come here because of President Trump?

16 A Yeah. I mean, he says a lot of things. He has over, you know, the past,

17 what, 7 years now. But, yeah, inspires people to go to these events.

18 Q Including the Proud Boys?

19 A Yeah.

20 B

21 Q I guess going off that a little bit, when you're talking about the Proud Boys

22 making fun of the Oath Keepers as nerds, was it your sense that the Proud Boys didn't

23 think the Oath Keepers were -- I don't know. Violence is the wrong word -- but willing to

24 use force strong enough, you know, out there on the streets?

25 A No. I think the general consensus of the group was that the Oath Keepers
 42

1 were kind of like role-playing as a militia.

2 Q And then what were the Proud Boys doing differently?

3 A Not much. Not much. They were -- yeah. I mean, are you talking about

4 when I was a member or just in general?

5 Q Yeah, while you were there at the end.

6 A Yeah. No, they were pretty much doing the same thing, saying they're

7 saving America by waving signs and screaming at people.

8 Q Was it your sense, though, that the Proud Boys were, after you left, kind of

9 looking for a fight?

10 A Yeah.

11 Q And that fight would be with people who did not support President Trump,

12 who did not support conservative rightwing causes?

13 A Sure. Yeah.

14 Q All right. Speaking of the connection between Mr. Tarrio and the Oath

15 Keepers, so on January 5th, this was reported in the news. It's come out that Mr. Tarrio

16 and Mr. Stewart Rhodes, who's the leader of the Oath Keepers, and some other people,

17 met in the basement of a -- sorry -- in the garage of a hotel on January 5th.

18 So did Mr. Tarrio mention anything about that meeting at all in your phone call

19 with him?

20 A No.

21 Q Okay. And just out of curiosity, what phone number did you use to call Mr.

22 Tarrio, if you can recall?

23 A Man, I don't recall. I know that he had a regular phone number I used.

24 couldn't tell you that off the top of my head, and I think I had to get a different phone

25 from him. I think he had to get a burner or something. So it was --

 43

1 Q So how did you find out how to contact him after he got out of jail?

2 A I don't remember who -- wait. After -- oh, you mean after --

3 Q January 5th. So he goes to --

4 A Right.

5 Q He goes to jail -- or he gets arrested on the 4th, gets out on the 5th and, like

6 you said, he had to leave D.C.

7 A Right.

8 Q They took his phone. So how did you figure out how to get in touch with

9 him?

10 A Someone had contacted me with his number. I don't remember who.

11 Q Out of the blue or somebody you reached out to?

12 BY

13 Q Was it a woman named Amy Harris?

14 A I don't think so. That name doesn't sound familiar.

15 Q Was it Jeremy Bertino?

16 A No.

17 Q Do you know Bertino?

18 A I've met him once.

19 Okay.

20 Did Mr. Dunn help you get this contact with Mr. Tarrio or did Mr.

21 Ochs?

22 Mr. Decarlo. It might have been Ochs. I don't remember, though. I just

23 remember it was given to me.

24 You are pretty confident that Mr. Tarrio got a new burner phone

25 to call you up that evening on January 5th?

 44

1 Mr. Decarlo. I use the term "burner" as just a temporary phone. I think

2 something had happened to his other phone.

3 Yes.

4 Mr. Decarlo. Yeah. So it was a different number.

5 Okay.

6 BY

7 Q And it wasn't Telegram; it was an actual phone?

8 A Oh, man. I'm pretty sure it was another phone. I'm pretty sure I called a

9 number.

10 Q Great. Thanks.

11 And to move backwards a little bit, have you heard of, like, it's sort of an ideology,

12 sometimes an organization, Three Percenters?

13 A I've heard of them, yeah.

14 Q Do you know of any Proud Boys who identified as Three Percenters?

15 A Not personally. I believe some of them did.

16 Q And you believe some -- was Three Percenters something that Proud Boys

17 started talking about a lot, as far as you're aware, or identifying as?

18 A I think it would probably be the other way around. I think Three Percenters

19 became Proud Boys, not Proud Boys became the other. I don't know.

20 Q When --

21 A Not as a group, just individuals would sometimes become Proud Boys.

22 Q And did this start at the same sort of moment when you were leaving, when

23 the Proud Boys were getting more political? Did you notice more Three Percenters

24 becoming at that time?

25 A Yes.
 45

1 Q How about -- are you aware of President Trump's comment during a debate

2 with now President Joe Biden in September of 2020 where President Trump was asked

3 about the Proud Boys, and he said, "stand back and stand by"? Are you aware of that?

4 A Yeah.

5 Q Is it your impression that after President Trump said, "stand back and stand

6 by," that increasing numbers of people who identified as Three Percenters started joining

7 the Proud Boys?

8 A Probably. Any --

9 BY

10 Q How did that comment -- sorry. Keep going.

11 A I'm really not trying to interrupt you every time you talk.

12 Q It's because we're virtual. It happens all the time. No worries.

13 A Okay. I was just going to say, I was just going to add, anytime Proud Boys

14 came up in news or viral videos, there would be a surge of people joining.

15 Q I want to go back to that "stand back stand by" from President Trump,

16 though. Do you remember what kind of impact it might have had on the Proud Boys,

17 like what you might have heard?

18 A Yeah.

19 Q What did you hear?

20 A I heard a lot of them feel like that was Trump starting to get them ready for

21 some kind of action. I don't think that's what it was intended to be, hearing his quote

22 myself, but I think that's how a lot of them took it.

23 Q Right. That's how they interpreted the "stand back and stand by" from

24 President Trump on that night, though, right?

25 A I believe so, yeah.

 46

1 Q And you heard this from more than one Proud Boy, it sounds like?

2 A It was more, like, when I'd be making fun of them with another friend and

3 go, "Can you believe, you know, these goofballs think that the President is telling them to

4 get ready for some kind of action?"

6 Q Was it your impression, though, that after the "stand back and stand by"

7 comment, that the Proud Boys started internally preparing for some sort of action to help

8 President Trump?

9 A No.

10 Q Okay.

11 A No. I think it was all just internet -- is "bolstering" the right word? Like,

12 just -- I don't know. I can't find the right word for it. You know, like just, check it out.

13 President's calling on me. Like, something like that.

14 Q Okay. All right. Do you need a break, Mr. Decarlo? We've been going

15 for about an hour and 15 minutes, so we're not that far from being done. But if you

16 want a break, we can take 5 minutes.

17 A Why don't we take 5 minutes to hit my vape and get a drink. Would that

18 be all right?

19 Q Yeah. Sure. Why don't we come back on at 5:18-ish? Does that work?

20 A Yeah.

21 - All right. We'll take a quick recess. Thank you.

22 [Recess.]

23 - We'll go back on the record at 5:19.

24 BY

25 Q So, Mr. Decarlo, why don't you just give us a brief overview of what you did
 47

1 on January 6th, and then we'll get into more specifics after you tell us.

2 A Brief overview. Talking about everything leading up to it or just when I was

3 there?

4 Q The day of. While you were there the day of.

5 A The day of?

6 Q Yes.

7 A Me and Ochs took an Uber to the Washington Monument. Started

8 recording. I started getting into character and everything and interviewed a few

9 different people, just people there.

10 And then I believe we were trying to find some internet influencer. Couldn't find

11 them. So then we found out Trump was starting to make a speech, so we attempted to

12 get in the crowd, get a good, you know, camera angle of it.

13 When it was over, we noticed people starting to walk down the road. I don't

14 remember which road it was, but I later found out it was the road to the actual Capitol

15 Building.

16 We got there, realized it might be getting a little dangerous getting this close with

17 our cameras, but we did anyway. We wanted good footage, and we've seen other, you

18 know, street journalists do similar, so --

19 Q All right. Why don't we pause there, and we'll go back to the beginning,

20 and then we'll get to the Capitol a little more.

21 So you interviewed a couple of people. What were they talking about on the

22 morning of January 6th?

23 A The ones I really remember was a couple of elderly Chinese ladies, and they

24 were just talking about really being there to support everyone. And they were handing

25 out like small gifts of money to everyone there. And that's what I remember from that
 48

1 conversation.

2 Q Was anyone that you were talking to discussing what was going to happen in

3 Congress that afternoon, the certification of the vote for President Biden?

4 A Not that I remember.

5 Q And you mentioned that you tried to listen to President Trump's speech.

6 Were you listening from the Washington Monument area or did you go to the Ellipse like

7 in front of the stage?

8 A So there was -- kind of hard to tell; there was so many people there. We

9 just kind of wedged our way into a crowd, and it was in some kind of yard. I guess it was

10 between the stage and the monument.

11 Q Okay. And could you hear the speech?

12 A Faintly.

13 Q Were you --

14 A 1couldn't really -- I'm sorry.

15 Q No. Go ahead.

16 A I was just saying I couldn't really make out a lot of what he was saying in the

17 crowd.

18 Q All right. Well, what were people around you saying in general? Were

19 they talking about -- were they chanting things like "stop the steal"? Were they talking

20 about Vice President Pence? Were they talking about Members of Congress, anything

21 like that?

22 A I think some people shouted -- I'm not sure if I should use the word in this

23 recording -- F Pence, you know, calling him traitor, and just like a lot of shouting, you

24 know, a lot of the phrases, like MAGA and stuff like that.

25 Q Were they shouting, "Fuck Pence. Mike Pence, you're a traitor," during
 49

1 President Trump's speech?

2 A I think so, during the speech.

3 Q Okay. And do you recall if they started shouting that after President Trump

4 mentioned Vice President Pence's name in his speech?

5 A I apologize. I'm going to have to -- I've got to unplug my Alexa. Sorry.

6 Can you just give me one second?

7 - Okay. We're going to recess in place.

8 Mr. Decarlo. Sorry.

9 - You're good.

10 [Discussion off the record.]

11 - We'll go back on the record then.

12 B~

13 Q So I asked if you heard people saying fuck Mike Pence or Vice President

14 Pence is a traitor after President Trump had invoked Vice President Pence's name during

15 his speech.

16 A I didn't hear what Trump said, so --

17 Q Okay.

18 A I really couldn't hear anything what was going on with him on the stage.

19 Q Okay. And did anything else that the crowd was saying stick out in your

20 mind, besides the chanting about Vice President Pence?

21 A No.

22 Q Okay. So then why did you join the crowd as they were walking down the

23 road to the Capitol?

24 A Me and Ochs were there to record people, and that's where people were

25 going.
 50

1 Q Was anybody explaining to you why they were heading to the Capitol?

2 A Nope. Some people were chanting different things. I was on video

3 chanting, making fun of them as we walked up.

4 Q Chants such as --

5 A The one I remember chanting was "Where do we piss? Where do we piss?"

6 Because we couldn't find any rest rooms there.

7 Q What was the crowd chanting, though?

8 A Don't remember.

9 Q Okay. Did you meet up with any Proud Boys that morning?

10 A No, I don't think so.

11 Q Did Mr. Ochs ever talk about a Proud Boys gathering at the Washington

12 Monument that morning?

13 A It was discussed, but we didn't see anybody there.

14 Q Was he hoping to meet up with the Proud Boys at the Washington

15 Monument?

16 A I believe to interview.

17 Q But you didn't end up interviewing any Proud Boys that morning?

18 A I don't remember interviewing any of them.

19 Q And how would you describe the crowd as you were marching to the

20 Capitol?

21 A It was just foot traffic. It didn't seem violent or anything.

22 Q All right. Did you stay for all of President Trump's speech before you left?

23 A From what I remember, yeah. Like I said, it was hard to tell when he

24 started and stopped talking. It was hard to really make out anything he was saying or if

25 he was talking. I'm --

 51

1 Q So you didn't hear --

2 A I'm sorry.

3 Q You didn't hear him say, you know, let's -- You're going to be walking down

4 Pennsylvania Avenue. I'm going to be walking, marching with you, anything like that?

5 A No, I didn't hear that.

6 Q Did anyone in the crowd express their view that they were going to the

7 Capitol because President Trump told them to?

8 A Like to the building itself or just D.C. in general?

9 Q The building itself.

10 A I don't remember.

11 BY
12 Q Were you aware there was going to be demonstrations at the Capitol too on

13 January 6th?

14 A Like before it was happening?

15 Q Yes.

16 A No.

17 Q When did you become aware that there was going to be demonstrations at

18 the Capitol?

19 A When we started walking up to it.

20 Q Why did you start walking? Did you become aware when Donald Trump

21 said it during his speech or did someone else tell you?

22 A I started walking because I saw a crowd of people walking down the road.

23 And I go, All right, well, something's going on over here. So we just kind of walked with

24 them and recorded.

25 Q And when you arrived at the Capitol Grounds, so it's sort of, you know, the
 52

1 Peace Monument and beyond it, did you know -- did you have a sense that you guys

2 weren't supposed to be walking where you were?

3 A A little bit, yeah.

4 Q Was that because you saw, you know, fences on the ground or saw

5 flash-bangs going off, anything like that?

6 A We saw a fence on the ground, yeah.

7 Q And what did you think about that?

8 A We thought we -- you know, something's going on on the other side of this.

9 We better -- we better go record it, see what's happening.

10 Q So according to your statement of facts, when you stepped on the grounds,

11 you said basically that you were there to "stop the steal" or that you patriots were there

12 to "stop the steal." Do you remember that?

13 A I remember saying things in sort of a character for entertainment value.

14 Q Why did you say patriots and "stop the steal" as a character then?

15 A It goes all the way back to the fund raiser I did where I mockingly presented

16 myself as a GI Joe-type figure.

17 Q Did you understand at that time what -- did your view of what "stop the

18 steal" meant sort of change as you're getting closer to the Capitol?

19 A No. It didn't really hit until I was in the crowd.

20 Q So in your statement of offense, paragraph 10, you said at the time -- well,

21 Mr. Ochs says, "The steal is, in fact, right here, and we are going to stop it."

22 And you said, "This is where they're going to steal it, and they called on us. They

23 called on us to stop it. We are putting an end to it. They said calling all patriots."

24 And who is the "they" in that sentence that you're referencing?

25 A America.
 53

1 Q Was it your view that America called people to "stop the steal" or President

2 Trump called people to "stop the steal"?

3 A It was my view, in a satirical sort of laughing, comedic sense, that Trump

4 supporters believed that it's their duty as Americans to "stop the steal," and I was sort of

5 saying it as a character.

6 Q Right. And so as playing that character, were you playing up the idea that

7 President Trump called these, quote/unquote, patriots to "stop the steal" on January 6th?

8 A I have some sort of loose awareness that, like, things he says at, you know,

9 speeches and whatnot, rally people. So I don't -- I don't recall hearing him say,

10 march -- anything like, march to the Capitol. We're going to "stop the steal" physically

11 right now.

12 Q Okay. Well, then, you mentioned when you got into the crowd, is

13 that -- when you said your sort of view of the crowd changed, was that inside or was that

14 when you were outside the Capitol in the crowd?

15 A I apologize. There was several crowds. So it was the crowd after crossing

16 the fallen fence. So the tight-packed crowd of people standing shouting at, I guess it

17 would be the base of the Capitol Building in front of the scaffolding.

18 Q Yeah. So you were on the west side where the inauguration platform was

19 being constructed? Does that sound right?

20 A Yes.

21 Q All right. So explain why your view about sort of "stop the steal" or what

22 was happening changed as you got into this part of the crowd.

23 A It wasn't immediately when I got into the crowd. I still figured it was just

24 going to be a bunch of people shouting like they do, as I've seen from recordings of a lot

25 of these similar events. It wasn't until the police started throwing flash-bangs and
 54

1 macing and pepper spraying the crowd and whatnot that I kind of -- I could feel the

2 energy of the crowd sort of turn.

3 Q And describe, then, what was that energy? How did it turn? What did it

4 become?

5 A It turned into anger, that a lot of people who typically support the police are

6 being attacked by the police for protesting.

7 Q And what was your view that the crowd was going to do in response?

8 A I had no idea what they were going to do in response until it all happened.

9 Q Okay. What were you -- do you remember what you were hearing in the

10 crowd, what you were seeing while this was happening?

11 A A lot of people yelling "traitors" at the D.C. cops. I saw three or four old

12 women get hit in the face with flash-bangs. I don't know if that's the right term for it

13 but, you know, what they throw for crowd control, grenades, big flash, loud noise.

14 People getting maced and pepper-balled.

15 Q And why did you think the cops were reacting that way?

16 A I think it was some sort of sad attempt by the police to deter them, to get

17 them away from the Capitol.

18 Q Why do you say sad attempt?

19 A Because I think when people are voicing their concerns and protesting and

20 you want them to calm down so you throw explosives and irritants at them, I think it has

21 an opposite effect.

22 Q Was it your view or is it your view that the crowd had a right to be where it

23 was and doing what it was doing?

24 A To some degree, I feel they had the right to be there, to protest.

25 Q Do you think that the police generally -- actually, we'll just move on.
 55

1 What else were you hearing? You mentioned what you were seeing with like

2 people getting hit with flash-bangs, some pepper spray happening.

3 Were you hearing people chant anything besides "traitors"? You mentioned the

4 Mike Pence chants earlier. Anything like that?

5 A I mean, maybe they were shouting, you know, fuck the police, stuff like that.

6 It was mostly just calling the cops traitors, from what I remember.

7 Q Okay. So according to your statement of offense, you started

8 climbing -- you and Mr. Ochs started climbing up the stairs outside of the Capitol to the

9 upper part of the west side around 2:12, and then you entered at 2:23 through what are

10 called the Senate wing doors. And that is actually about 10 minutes after the first

11 breach of those doors happened. So I'm just wondering if you could describe what you

12 were seeing as you were walking through those doors.

13 A As I walked through the doors?

14 Q Yeah.

15 A So like post climbing the steps?

16 Q Yeah.

17 A Walked through the doors. I saw people pretty much walking in one

18 direction, and that was when you walk in to the right, and we noticed a lot of people

19 gathering in one large circular room at the end of that hallway. We kind of stood

20 around and recorded for a bit, then followed them where they were going.

21 Q And was there anything while you were walking up the stairs that sticks out

22 in your mind, anything people were saying or doing?

23 A Most people were saying, "This is crazy."

24 Q This is crazy, yet we're going to keep going forward?

25 A I don't know what they were thinking, but I think people were -- I think
 56

1 everybody was sort of shocked that what was happening was happening.

2 Q So why did you keep going towards --

3 A Recording --

4 Q -- and into the Capitol?

5 A Didn't mean to cut you off. Sorry. I kept going to record.

6 Q Okay. And I assume, you know, you saw the broken glass. You had

7 already mentioned that the police were fighting back.

8 At the time, were you thinking I should not be going into the Capitol?

9 A At the time, I thought there might be some kind of possibility of flack, like a

10 trespassing ticket, because I had seen -- I had seen, you know, a ton of people go in.

11 had seen cops standing down. Before I went in through the doors, I saw probably 60 to

12 80 Capitol cops just standing around with their hands in their pockets, not even

13 confronting any of the crowd or trying to stop them. They were just sort of -- you know,

14 they looked bored, just standing there. So I didn't think it was really that big a deal that

15 I, myself, was in there.

16 Q What did you think about the fact that the door had been broken down and

17 that the windows had been broken?

18 A I think it was sort of like -- I was just filming an event that was happening.

19 Q Sure. But as you're filming the event, it must have made some impression

20 on you. So what was your impression of seeing, you know, windows of the Capitol, door

21 to the Capitol busted in, you know, alarms blaring? What was that kind of impression?

22 A My impression -- honestly, my only impression was like, holy cow, this

23 is -- this is happening right now. Something crazy's going on, and I'm going to be one

24 of -- you know, one of the people that records it from while it's happening.

25 Q And according to your statement of offense, paragraph 14, you know, you
 57

1 and Mr. Ochs go into the Crypt. You're smoking some cigarettes, posting to social

2 media, and you yell, "Where's Nancy? Where are you at, Nancy?"

3 I'm assuming you meant Speaker Pelosi. Why did you shout that?

4 A I shouted that mostly in jest because I heard other people shouting it. It

5 was more of like a shock thing. It's like, you know, whoa, where's Nancy; like, they're

6 yelling that.

7 Q And did you get a sense or have any idea why -- you know, what the people

8 were doing shouting "Where's Nancy?"

9 A I would imagine they were angry with Nancy Pelosi and they wanted to find

10 her office.

11 Q And what did you think of that possibility?

12 A I mean, I think it'd be crazy if they found Nancy.

13 Q Was it going through your head at all that the possibility of this angry group

14 of people shouting "Where's Nancy?" could possibly find the Speaker of the House?

15 A No.

16 Q Were you aware that Congress was even in the building that day certifying

17 the vote as this was happening?

18 A I was under the thought that they were long gone by the time we were even

19 inside of the Capitol.

20 Q What gave you that impression?

21 A Because there was a crowd of about 100,000 angry Trump supporters in D.C.

22 Q Right. But -- in D.C. or at the Capitol? I mean, Congress can do its work

23 when people are in the city.

24 A I would say probably I was feeling maybe they weren't even there by the

25 time people were getting into it. I mean, the crowd was at the base of the Capitol for a
 58

1 while, from what I remember.

2 Q So you expected that the people left -- that the Members of Congress left

3 probably -- why -- because they felt threatened or any other reason?

4 A I mean, they probably felt threatened.

5 Q All right. So after you're in the Crypt and you shout "Where's Nancy?", you

6 headed towards the Capitol Visitors Center, according to your statement of offense, and

7 you were actually near a Proud Boy named William Chrestman, C-h-r-e-s-t-m-a-n.

8 Do you know Mr. Chrestman?

9 A The only thing I know him from is my summary or my -- the Federal

10 document I believe you're quoting. Never met him. I only know his name just from it

11 being mentioned in this case.

12 Q Okay. And as you're watching him and another individual wedge -- these

13 are crash doors, like garage doors, that close off areas. They're wedging them open with

14 trash cans and other objects, what was going through your head?

15 A I was laughing at the irony of the situation. I saw somebody with a Blue

16 Lives Matter flag wedging it into a security door, like probably the police force.

17 Someone was wedging a Blue Lives Matter flag into a security door, kind of ironic.

18 Q Ironic because you imagined that the person holding the Blue Lives Matter

19 flag was going after police?

20 A Not going after police, just rejecting -- you know, the Blue Lives Matter

21 crowd, they're all about, you know, respecting the cops. I would imagine it was a cop

22 that was lowering that door, and somebody with a flag that represents respect cops is

23 disrespecting cops with it.

24 Q Got it. And then after that, it looks like around 2:42, you actually met up

25 with some Proud Boys -- Ethan Nordean, who we mentioned; Paul Rae, R-a-e; and then
 59

1 maybe another individual -- and you kind of -- you guys all -- you and Mr. Ochs sort of

2 hugged in there. Were you surprised to see Mr. Nordean and Mr. Rae?

3 A I was. I mean, I was surprised to see them in that moment. I figured, you

4 know, being an event that Proud Boys are probably going to be at, I would run into them

5 at some point. It was more of just a shock I saw him there at that point.

6 Q Did you guys talk about anything when you met up?

7 A We mostly just said, you know, like, Wow, this is crazy. This is crazy.

8 What's going on?

9 Q Did Mr. Nordean seem -- how did -- describe, like, his emotional state.

10 A Shocked. Excited, but shocked.

11 Q Was he -- did he seem celebratory?

12 A Maybe a little, but more shocked, more -- yeah. I mean, it was crazy what

13 was going on.

14 Q Did you --

15 A That's pretty much all we talked about too. It's just like, Wow, can you

16 believe what's happening is happening? So --

17 Q Were there a lot of other Proud Boys around you guys at this time?

18 A Didn't recognize anybody except for those two.

19 Q And how do you know Mr. Rae?

20 A I had loosely met him with Rufio.

21 - Okay. Anyfollowup?

22

23 Q I'm guessing then you yelled "Nancy's office" while you were in there in the

24 same spirit as you did in the Crypt?

25 A Yes.
 60

1 Q All right. Did you stay with Mr. Nordean and the other Proud Boys after

2 that encounter?

3 A Loosely, but we got separated shortly after.

4 Q Okay. So did you have any conversations with them later in the day or

5 thereafter about what happened on January 6th?

6 A No.

7 Q All right. So you never discussed with Mr. Nordean the lead-up to

8 January 6th and what he was doing before he got into the Rotunda?

9 A I don't believe so. I don't remember anything like that.

10 Q Same question for Mr. Rae or any of the other individuals, Proud Boys you

11 met in the Rotunda?

12 A No.

13 Q Okay. So after that, you and Mr. Ochs sort of head towards what's known

14 as the Chestnut-Gibson Memorial Door. According to your statement of offense,

15 paragraph 18, you wrote "Murder the Media" on a door. Can you explain why that

16 happened?

17 A It was sort of a -- supposed to be like publicity for my channel.

18 Q Yeah.

19 A Similar to how you'd see lnstagram handles being written on like streetlights

20 and stuff like that or power boxes.

21 Q Is there any difference in your mind between the inside of the United States

22 Capitol and a power box on the street?

23 A I believe they're government property. That was the mentality.

24 Q All right. So there's no -- I guess you don't have -- that's all right.

25 After that, you rummaged through a Capitol Police duffel bag and took some
 61

1 flexi-cuffs. Why did you take those?

2 A I figured it'd be a cheap souvenir.

3 Q Was there anything else in the bag, though, that you thought about taking

4 and decided on the flexi-cuffs?

5 A There were like a bunch of ticket books. There was the marker that I wrote

6 on the door with. That's it.

7 Q Okay. I'm guessing you didn't try to use those flexi-cuffs on January 6th?

8 A No.

9 Q All right. So outside the Capitol on January 6th, you and Mr. Ochs did a live

10 stream. Mr. Ochs says, quote, "we have some good news. We have now just peeked

11 through this window, and on the television the headline reads that Congress stops the

12 vote when we stormed the Capitol. And as we've been saying all day, we came here to

13 'stop the steal."'

14 You interjected, "We did it."

15 And Mr. Ochs replied, "We were being sarcastic, but we didn't know we were

16 actually going to."

17 And then you asked, "Wait. You were being sarcastic."

18 At that time, how did you understand the phrase "stop the steal"?

19 A At that time how did I understand the phrase? Stopping the steal of the

20 election, that's how I understood it.

21 Q You were -- it was your view that the people who stormed the Capitol that

22 day had prevented the certification of the vote?

23 A It was more my view that they did. And when I said I did it, it was more of

24 the satire, the crass satire I use on my channel whenever I'm on video.

25 Q You say, "You're welcome, America" -- I'm sorry. Mr. Ochs said, "You're
 62

1 welcome, America."

2 And you replied, "We did our job. We did our job."

3 And then I know -- and I've watched some of your later live streams from that

4 night and the 7th, and sort of the theme was that, you know, America, thank me for

5 stopping the steal. Mr. Ochs and I did it.

6 Why did think America would want to thank the people who were there to "stop

7 the steal"?

8 A Why would I think America would want to thank the people that were there?

9 Q Yeah.

10 A When I was saying for America to thank me, again, it was more a satire sort

11 of thing, almost a character of myself that I was playing.

12 Q Okay. So you also posed for a photo with a Jacob Chansley outside of the

13 Capitol. He's also been called Q Shaman, you know, the very famous picture of the guy

14 with the horns.

15 Had you ever met Mr. Chansley before January 6th?

16 A That was literally the only time I've ever met him.

17 Q Okay. So was it your view just -- there were people calling Mr. Chansley

18 antifa that day. Was it your view that antifa was primarily responsible for storming the

19 Capitol or was it mostly Trump supporters?

20 A I'll say this, whoever was doing it, whoever all was doing it were dressed like

21 Trump supporters.

22

BY-
- Okay. One second.

23

24 Q So after January 6th, when did you go back to Texas, or wherever you were

25 going back?
 63

1 A I'm pretty sure it was the 7th.

2 Q Okay. Were you in touch with any Proud Boys about January 6th, other

3 than Mr. Ochs?

4 A I don't think so.

5 Q Did Mr. Ochs ever relay to you what the Proud Boys were saying about what

6 happened on January 6th?

7 A No. After we separated, we weren't in contact, I don't think. And part of

8 that was because he got detained like right when he got off the plane in Hawaii.

9 Q Yeah. Were you paying attention -- excuse me. Were you paying

10 attention at all to Mr. Tarrio's social media posts on January 6th, the night of, the next

11 day, January 7th?

12 A No, I don't think so.

13 Q Well, you said you often, like, reposted each other's stuff. So did you see

14 on Parler a message that he posted that sort of implied that the Proud Boys had -- you

15 know, were responsible for what happened on January 6th?

16 A So I didn't see that. I didn't really man -- I didn't manage our Parler account

17 at all. That wasn't me who paid attention to any of that.

18 Q Did you ever talk to Mr. Tarrio after January 6th on the phone?

19 A I might have. I talked to a lot of people.

20 Q Do you remember talking to Mr. Tarrio about January 6th?

21 A Might have asked him for a good attorney.

22 Q All right. Did you talk to him about your experience? Did he talk to you

23 about what he was seeing? Did he talk to you about the Proud Boys more generally on

24 January 6th?

25 A Not that I remember.

 64

1 Q So on January 12th in one of your chats, you said, "Vo, Trump, toss us some

2 pardons quick."

3 Why were you -- what prompted you to make that comment?

4 A Not wanting to be in trouble with the Federal Government.

5 - Okay. So this might be a better question for Mr. Feitel. But can

6 you just describe the current state of your current criminal -- or Mr. DeCarlo's criminal

7 case?

8 Mr. Feitel. Certainly. Mr. Decarlo entered a plea of guilty, I think, to count 2 of

9 the indictment against him, which was to the crime of conspir -- no. He pied to the

10 substantive count of obstruction of a congressional proceeding, a violation of 18 U.S.C.

11 1512, subsection C, I believe. At the time of sentencing, the government will -- has

12 agreed to dismiss all the other counts. And we have sentencing set for, I think, the 3rd

13 of December in this case.

14 - Great. Thank you very much.

15 So, Mr. Decarlo, we're going to conclude, unless --

16 No.

17 - So as part of that plea, has Mr. Decarlo -- has he sat down for

18 interviews with the FBI or U.S. Attorney's Office?

19 Mr. Feitel. The U.S. Attorney's Office did not -- they had originally wanted Mr.

20 Decarlo to do that as a condition of extending the plea offer, and then later, after some

21 litigation in the case and things had progressed, they simply said it wasn't necessary any

22 longer. So Mr. Decarlo has not sat down and talked with the prosecutors on this case.

23 You [inaudible] with the FBI, though, right?

24 Mr. Feitel. Mr. Decarlo, I think at the time of his arrest, he voluntarily provided

25 access to his cell phone, but I don't believe he's given an interview to law enforcement.
 65

1 Got it. Okay. That's good. Thanks for the clarification.

2 BY

3 Q So, Mr. Decarlo, looking back today, how do you view what happened on

4 January 6th?

5 A How do I view what happened?

6 Q Yes.

7 A Like my opinion of everything that went down? It shouldn't have

8 happened.

9 BY

10 Q What role, if any, did President Trump play in what happened on

11 January 6th?

12 A Probably inspired a bunch of people to do it and then kind of left

13 them -- kind of abandoned them.

14 Q And, again, when you're saying inspired a bunch of people and abandoned

15 them, this includes some of the folks you were with, like the Proud Boys, correct?

16 A Yeah. I mean, I would imagine they went there, you know, inspired by

17 what Trump said, you know, to support him. And then I'm not saying what they did was

18 supporting him or not, but they probably thought they were supporting him. And, you

19 know, after they did all that, he kind of -- seems like he abandoned them.

20 Q Help us understand that. Why does it seem like he abandoned them?

21 A I think if a President tells a supporter to come here and, you know, support

22 me at the Capitol and "stop the steal," and then they make an effort to do so and he

23 doesn't pardon them, that kind of seems like -- kind of seems like, you know, President

24 abandoned them.

25 So it's your view that President Trump sort of called these people to
 66

1 Washington, D.C., and, therefore, should have been helping out the people who did his

2 bidding with a pardon?

3 Mr. Decarlo. Kind of. I mean, you know, if a sitting President tells you to rally

4 and protest and you do that, yeah.

5 And does that mean you assign some responsibility for what

6 happened on January 6th to President Trump?

7 Mr. Decarlo. Sure.

8 - I think we don't have any other questions.

9 Is there anything, Mr. Decarlo or Mr. Feitel, you want to put on the record before

10 we adjourn for the day?

11 Mr. Feitel. Nicholas, is there anything you want to say?

12 Mr. Decarlo. No. I'm good.

13 Mr. Feitel. No. I think we'll leave the record as it stands then.

14 - Okay. Well, then, subject to the call of the chair, we'll adjourn this

15 interview as of 5:58 p.m.

16 We're off the record.

17 [Whereupon, at 5:58 p.m., the interview was adjourned, subject to the call of the

18 chair.]
 67

1 Certificate of Deponent/Interviewee

4 I have read the foregoing _ _ pages, which contain the correct transcript of the

5 answers made by me to the questions therein recorded.

10 Witness Name

11

12

13

14 Date

15